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Last chance guys... I've deleted a few posts... next time, I just restrict the posters!
Discuss the TOPIC and NOT the posters.
Discuss the TOPIC and NOT the posters.
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Keep on Civin'
RIP rah, Tony Bogey & Baron O -
I do think February through August are relevant to a broader discussion, but it's not really the topic of this thread. For instance, I could say that Petraeus accepted increased violence against the troops as they put themselves increasingly in harms way. I have no reason or desire to gainsay it. You can add these up-front costs in blood to the $400 million per annum in treasure.Originally posted by Oerdin
I honestly feel that in all the cheering about how much improved Baghdad is that people are ignoring the utter failue which has been the other 10 months of this year. Take and average for the year, as DanS's source did, and you find the situation was the worst ever. It puts the last two months into perspective even if certain douche bags don't like it.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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less people dying is success in one way. having to reinvent new goals on the spot because the old ones arent being met is dumb."I hope I get to punch you in the face one day" - MRT144, Imran Siddiqui
'I'm fairly certain that a ban on me punching you in the face is not a "right" worth respecting." - loinburgerComment
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Less people dying is success in one way. But I am more interested in this thread of whether this is an indication of the insurgency having been defeated or on its way to defeat.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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BTW since there are almost no non-American forces left to really understand what the true death rates are we would have to compare death rates per 1,000 soldiers or at least some fixed amount. Comparing just death rates while ignoring the number of soldiers and wounded rates as well as ignoring dead and wounded Iraqi service men makes no sense.
In fact it is so illogical that I am left to assume it is intentional just to make one side look good and prevent useful statistical comparison.Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.Comment
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Listen, this shouldn't be tough. Take a look at that site. In November, the number of reported Iraqi military and civilian deaths in October and November are the lowest months since that information started to be gathered (January '06). If you want to look at just the Iraqi military, they have that information back to January '05.
As I recall, the site is anti-war, so it's not as if I'm picking and choosing sources.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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You aren't listening. They aren't factoring in all coalition deaths in their figures and those death figures haven't been normalized to a fixed number of troops. They should be deaths per thousand troops as this is the only meaningful way to statistically compare the data at different periods in time.
They don't so that begs the question of why not? Do they just not understand standard statistics, are they deliberately trying to hide something, or are they just to lazy to do things properly?Last edited by Dinner; November 30, 2007, 14:40.Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.Comment
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Indeed, they are factoring in all coalition deaths. Just look at the goddamn site!
Normalizing for the number of troops would be the correct thing to do, but it's not as if the pure counts are useless. Do you have any reason to believe that we have drawn down our troop count in the last two months enough to make a difference? Do you have any reason to believe that the Iraqi forces or civilians have been drawn down in the last two months enough to make a difference?I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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or on its way to taking a snooze.Originally posted by DanS
Less people dying is success in one way. But I am more interested in this thread of whether this is an indication of the insurgency having been defeated or on its way to defeat."I hope I get to punch you in the face one day" - MRT144, Imran Siddiqui
'I'm fairly certain that a ban on me punching you in the face is not a "right" worth respecting." - loinburgerComment
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No, the topic of this thread is cheerleading for a short-term success that may, or may not, turn out to be significant in the long run.I do think February through August are relevant to a broader discussion, but it's not really the topic of this thread.
So yay for the drop in violence. Huzzah. But there really isn't much else to say.
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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I think it may be more than just a drop in violence. It seems that one side, the Sunnis, are realizing that it is in there interests to be involved on the side of the government. This is a major development, imho. Is it the end all? No, obviously not. It does, however, indicate that clear progress is being made. Will that progress turn in to something more substantial? Who knows? But it is definately a move in the correct direction and is a cause for limited celebration.
The problem I see with everyone is that this issue has become so devisive that people are so locked into their positions that they cannot see anything beyond that. Even the anti-war, bring the troops home now crowd showed be happy to see a development like this. Where the discussion should be is on what can be done from here. GePap is pretty good about being pragmatic about this issue...if a bit pessimistic. It would be good if everybody could express their opinions from realism instead of idealism."I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003Comment
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It's true that our increased troop presence has lead to a sharp decline in civilian casualities, which was more or less expected before the surge, and is not surprising given the largely successful ethnic cleansing that has occurred over the past couple years (indeed, what was remarkable about the situation is that civilian casualties kept rising for months despite the escalation). The problem is that there has been absolutely no progress regarding ethnic reconciliation (indeed, there are signs that the situation is even moving backwards - see i.e. Shahristani's declaration of all oil contracts that were signed by the KRG to be null and void), and there's nothing stopping the sectarian gridlock that caused the situation to be so bad between the Spring of last year and the Fall of this year to lead to a resurgence in violence once our troop levels go down again. People forget that the entire idea behind the surge was to give Iraqi pols time to work out their problems in relative peace; but time is running out, and the problems haven't been resolved. And no one seriously expects them to be any time soon."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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And $400 million? I think someone forgot a few zeroes...Last edited by Ramo; November 30, 2007, 17:30."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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the Sunnis, are realizing that it is in there interests to be involved on the side of the government.
Is that why the IAF dropped out of Maliki's gov't in the Summer, and refuses to rejoin it?"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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Yes.Originally posted by Ramo
the Sunnis, are realizing that it is in there interests to be involved on the side of the government.
Is that why the IAF dropped out of Maliki's gov't in the Summer, and refuses to rejoin it?"I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003Comment
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