Finally! An alternative for Afghan poppy growers

[C0ckney]

i have grave concerns about the practicalities of smoking such a large joint.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Wezil
There it is. I knew I wouldn't have to wait long.

"Turn tail and run".

Next we'll be talking about little girls going to school again.

You brought up Somalia. Thats what happened in Somalia. I wouldnt have brought up the phrase otherwise.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Wezil

I'll tell you what it doesn't include: It doesn't include indefinite "nation building" projects involving the support of unpopular governments.

Kharzai isnt being propped up by us, at the next election he can be beaten by the NA. We're keeping the entire regime in place against the Taliban, and if you think the Taliban are more popular, youve perhaps had too much of the Balkh province exports

Does anyone really think the Taliban coming back to power is a real threat to the West? They'd have to walk to Pakistan for gawd sakes just to catch a plane to get anywhere near us! Refuge for AQ? As if there are a shortage of places AQ can hang out (including the countries of some of our "friends and allies" of course).

Where is there an unmolested refuge, a state they control. Not Iraq, not KSA. Closest thing to it is NWFP in Pakistan, and THAT situation will only be made far worse by a Taliban ruled Afghanistan.

If AQ/Taliban/Afghanistan were to pose a future threat then we can do what we did years ago and remove them. Rebuilding is up to them.

Except of course "we" didnt remove them. If "we" had had to remove them it would have been a worse mess than Iraq. What happened is that "we" dropped a bunch of bombs in coordination with local ground forces, both NA and some Pashtuns. Who just MIGHT not be eager to work with us again, if we throw them to the wolves.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Wezil
I have opposed past deployments as well.

Kosovo was an air war.

Not since 1999. Its been an occupation.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Wezil
I'm opposed b/c I see it as an occupation. As much as I dislike the Taliban it is not my country and my military should not be determining their future.

So Afghanistan is a ****hole. So what? So is Zimbabwe and I don't see us fueling up the tanks to better the lives of little girls there.

You really should read The Kite Runner. If theres anything happening in Zimbabwe thats as bad as the Taliban, I havent heard about it. I mean the head of te opposition there is still alive. For crying out loud, the Taliban wouldnt have given anyone whod had the nerve to say a kind word about their opposition a drop of mercy.

I still dont get it. Is is wrong cause it violates their soveriegnty, and is evil aggression, or cause its too hard and costly? If the latter, why does it matter if its an occupation or not? We could be supporting the most popular man in the country, and genuinely ready to leave as soon as he asked, and it would still be costly and burdensome. And if the former, why exactly does our failure to do something about Zimbabwe mean its wrong to worry about little girls (and others as well) in Afghanistan?

[Wezil]

edit - Wow! You really are trying to turn this into a serious discussion. This was in response to post #47... At least post a nice pic will ya?

Alright. It's just one of those slogans now. Like somehow wanting to bring an end to the mission is b/c you are a coward or you don't like the thought of blood or you don't want little girls to go to school...

As I've said, casualties are not my motivation. Each one is tragic but the nation isn't going to fall apart over it. You don't seem to accept this assertion however and seem to somehow equate my "not my country" statement to casualties are my motivation. I had no problem using force to drive the Taliban from power. They harbored those that attacked us and for this they deserved no less. I do have a problem with continuing to occupy the place in an effort to turn it into something we think it should be. It doesn't even matter if we can do this casualty free. It's simply not our business. If they want to be a backward wretched place (like many Islamic countries are) then I guess that's up to them.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Wezil
It doesn't even matter if we can do this casualty free. It's simply not our business. If they want to be a backward wretched place (like many Islamic countries are) then I guess that's up to them.

I dont think the majority of Afghans want it to be a backward wretched place. It WASNT such a place, prior to the Daud coup. It was a 3rd world country, but a stable, developing one. Then they had a 25 year nightmare.

Again, read The Kite Runner. Learn a little about that country, and what its been through. You may still support withdrawl, but I dont think you'll think about the place the same way again.

[Wezil]

I'll try to condense the response to the posts I missed.

Karzai being defeated - Possible, but I assure you his replacement will have to be acceptable to us. Any non-Western approved politicians will be banned.

Taliban popularity - No, they are certainly not a majority but they seem to be the preferred group from the largest ethnic group. Given time they may again consolidate most of the country.

Taliban refuge - You named a good one. Pakistan. Could it be worse with a Taliban Afghanistan? Hard to imagine "worse". Besides, the Taiban will need to spend much time and resource in retaking what they have lost. They'll be busy for awhile.

Removing of Taliban - Yes, I agree. The Afghan opposition did the bulk of the "heavy lifting". Would they do it again? I guess that's up to them. I repeat, it is their country. Will they die for it?

Kosovo - What do the locals think of our presence? Are they trying to blow us up?

[Wezil]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


I dont think the majority of Afghans want it to be a backward wretched place. It WASNT such a place, prior to the Daud coup. It was a 3rd world country, but a stable, developing one. Then they had a 25 year nightmare.

Again, read The Kite Runner. Learn a little about that country, and what its been through. You may still support withdrawl, but I dont think you'll think about the place the same way again.

It's not that I don't have compassion for the people that don't want it to be that way. It would be great if things in many parts of the world were better. I simply don't think we have the right or responsibility to selectively pick and choose what nations we are going to remake in our image. The list is too long and we quickly become hypocrits. We condemn the Taliban for their actions (only post 9/11 mind you - they were alright by us before that) but carry on business with the Saudi's even though they sentence a woman to a whipping for having the audacity to be in the presence of men who proceeded to rape her.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Wezil
Kosovo - What do the locals think of our presence? Are they trying to blow us up?

What does that have to do with anything?

[Wezil]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
What does that have to do with anything?

For one thing it tells us if our presence is welcome. If we aren't welcome we are occupying.

[DinoDoc]

I don't think you actually know what that word means.

[Wezil]

Enlighten me oh Wise One.

[DinoDoc]

The locals in Germany and Japan never blew us up after the war. Does that mean they were never occupied by Allied forces?

[Wezil]

Some of them tried but in general they weren't in much of a position to resist at that point. Yes, they were occupied.

It could even be argued they wanted us there. Food and shelter were strong motivators...