"Russia will soon be a one party state"

[The Vagabond]

By the way, Belgian politics is rather breath-taking at the moment. It's a pity it is not discussed now here on Poly.

[Dinner]

I have to admit Serb does make an interesting point. For the people used to the really crushing lack of choices and freedoms under the USSR Putin's Russia is considerably more liberal. It doesn't live up to modern ideas of democracy but many Russians no doubt feel it is better then either the USSR or the kind of chaos Yelsin offered so they're sticking with it and hoping for the best.

Naturally, westerners who kept being told by their leaders that Russia was becoming a western style democracy like the rest of Europe feel disappointed but the reality is that was all kind of unrealistic wishful thinking from the very beginning. I'm still hoping Russia can continue to evolve and that as the economy advances individual Russians will start demanding better government with true division of powers, independent courts, and all the rest but that isn't a sure thing.

[onodera]

You can't seriously expect people to care about politics when they still have troubles with economics.

[Dinner]

Agreed. A few states, like Germany and Japan, were able to make the immediate jump from totalitarian state to real democracy though they had outside help. Most of today's democracies in Latin America or Asia (specifically thinking of South Korea & Taiwan) went first into authoritarian governments and only after economic advancement had taken place did the people demand real democracy. Hopefully Russians will do the same eventually.

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by onodera
You can't seriously expect people to care about politics when they still have troubles with economics.

I disagree. Whatever the standard of living of the average Russian, it is far better than what a certain people had in 1776 wen they rebelled against the government because - they didn't want to pay the costs of their defence

This holds generally and not just for Russia: even a pauper today lives better than a king did 300 years ago.

Low expectations lead nowhere. People who whine all the time and ask for more push the society forward, not those who are content with the situation.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by VetLegion


I disagree. Whatever the standard of living of the average Russian, it is far better than what a certain people had in 1776 wen they rebelled against the government because - they didn't want to pay the costs of their defence

I'd say they didn't enjoy being taxed to pay for government policy without getting a say on what government policy should be. The British mostly wanted to raise taxes to pay past war debt but they also started a number of trade policies, the Navigation Act comes to mind, which were mercantilist & good for the UK but which had drastic effects on traditional colonial trading arrangements.

Most of the people at the time agreed that right up to early 1775 the American Revolution could have been avoided if the UK allowed the Americans some form of representation in Parliament or other way to voice their interests during the formulation of Imperial policy. If you take a group of people who had spent the last 100-150 years voting and deciding their own local policies and then tell them the mother country is going to now run everything, you don't get a say in it, and we're going to tax you to pay for it then you piss a lot of people off.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Traianvs


We're talking about Russian politics here, of course you're not going to discuss Belgian politics
It's just that there are some very obvious problems in Russia that you try to ignore stubbornly. One point is that corruption is rampant in Russia, especially when someone of the military is involved. The famous Budanov case (and the Kungayeva girl) for instance shows this clearly. Another stunning example: the way how Pasjka Fedulev rose to power, how he was protected by various officials, how he acquired new property and got away with it. Corruption and crime is rampant in Russia, and Putin is responsible, at least indirectly.

I don't feel like going into too much details right now. But given these examples, I think you'll know what I mean, and I'm certain you'll have a hard time refuting the systematic flaws in the Russian system of which these examples are symptoms

1) Budanov was found gulty and now is in jail.
2) I have no idea who is Pasjka Fedulev.
3) Corruption and crime have not became a problem under Putin, but much earlier. However, you don't even mention Yeltsin (who was a founding father of that crime fest), you blame Putin who actually improved the situation.
4) That's what I'm talking about your western view is extremely unfair towards Putin. Basicaly you are just a bunch of lying hypocrites who praise real dictators (like Saakashvilly, f.e.) as true democrats and bullsh!ting yourselves about non-existing dictatorship in Russia.
5) Have a nice day.

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Serb


1) Budanov was found gulty and now is in jail.
2) I have no idea who is Pasjka Fedulev.
3) Corruption and crime have not became a problem under Putin, but much earlier. However, you don't even mention Yeltsin (who was a founding father of that crime fest), you blame Putin who actually improved the situation.
4) That's what I'm talking about your western view is extremely unfair towards Putin. Basicaly you are just a bunch of lying hypocrites who praise real dictators (like Saakashvilly, f.e.) as true democrats and bullsh!ting yourselves about non-existing dictatorship in Russia.
5) Have a nice day.

Budanov was found guilty yes, but only after a long and tedious process. If you check the prodecures and actions that were undertaken both before and during the trial, you'll see that for a long time he was backed up and supported by judges, superiors and high-ranking politicians. It was sickening tbh.

(Pavel) Fedulev was an oligarch, now dead. His rise to power is illustrative of the corruption in Russia. Basically he bribed everyone and everything. He bought companies first, then exploited them and finally they were declared bankrupt. Along the way he was not afraid of having people killed. Without going too much into detail, what I can say is that in a western country it would nigh impossible to pull off what he did. I'm not saying bandits and crooks don't exist over here, but the methods that were used don't.
You might want to read Politkovskaya's Putin's Russia for details...

[onodera]

Originally posted by Traianvs


Budanov was found guilty yes, but only after a long and tedious process. If you check the prodecures and actions that were undertaken both before and during the trial, you'll see that for a long time he was backed up and supported by judges, superiors and high-ranking politicians. It was sickening tbh.

99.5% of Russian citizens (an approximate value) support Budanov and think he did nothing wrong. And the remaining 0.5% are Chechens.
Snipers are universally hated in any warzone, and there wasn't enough water to waterboard the girl.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Traianvs


Budanov was found guilty yes, but only after a long and tedious process. If you check the prodecures and actions that were undertaken both before and during the trial, you'll see that for a long time he was backed up and supported by judges, superiors and high-ranking politicians. It was sickening tbh.

Who cares? He got what he deserved. Case closed.

(Pavel) Fedulev was an oligarch, now dead. His rise to power is illustrative of the corruption in Russia. Basically he bribed everyone and everything. He bought companies first, then exploited them and finally they were declared bankrupt. Along the way he was not afraid of having people killed. Without going too much into detail, what I can say is that in a western country it would nigh impossible to pull off what he did. I'm not saying bandits and crooks don't exist over here, but the methods that were used don't.

Big deal. Khodorkovsky and Berezovsky made their billions exactly the same way.

You might want to read Politkovskaya's Putin's Russia for details...

I don't like to read BS stories. You better read Paul Khlebnikov's "Godfather of Kremlin" or "Talk with Barbarian".

[Serb]

Originally posted by onodera


99.5% of Russian citizens (an approximate value) support Budanov and think he did nothing wrong.

This is not true.

[Dinner]

It certainly seemed like Budanov enjoyed a substantial amount of support among average Russian people even if the percentage was not quite so overwhelming.

[Serb]

An "average Russian" don't know any circumstaces of the case. It's about "he is our guy,he suppose to be a good guy" approach. Don't tell me you don't feel something like that wrt to your soldiers who face the tribunal for warcrimes in Iraq. This is the approach an average Russian initially has, when he becomes familiar with the circumstaces of the case result may be vary. Me thinks Russians and Americans aren't so different there.

Anyhow, the tribual found Budanov guilty regardless of public opinion and he is in jail now.

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Serb
An "average Russian" don't know any circumstaces of the case. It's about "he is our guy,he suppose to be a good guy" approach. Don't tell me you don't feel something like that wrt to your soldiers who face the tribunal for warcrimes in Iraq. This is the approach an average Russian initially has, when he becomes familiar with the circumstaces of the case result may be vary. Me thinks Russians and Americans aren't so different there.

Anyhow, the tribual found Budanov guilty regardless of public opinion and he is in jail now.

True.

Snipers are universally hated in any warzone, and there wasn't enough water to waterboard the girl.

Apparently the evidence to support the claim that she was a sniper was not at all conclusive, especially for Budanev at the time. That's the reason why the murder was so outrageous...

[Ellestar]

Originally posted by Lancer
Missiles can be tuned up, and they might work. Kind of like one of those Russian cars, but you wouldn't want to take your best girl out in one. Well, depends on the girl I suppose.

I would think twice about launching one of those missiles if I were Putin, tuned up or not.

Well, it's about the same missiles as missiles in the Russian space program... And AFAIK noone complains about it's efficiency. Actually, these missiles work much better than USA space shuttles Russia supplied ISS alone for several years with these missiles when USA shuttles were grounded. And we have a very big share of a commercial space launches.

Now, ICBMs are about the only thing in a Russian military that will stand up to expectations if nessesary (mostly because there was a huge overkill in the first place), but that's another story. Say, i heard that our long-range bombers will not be able to continue their flights because repair parts stockpiles will be depleted in several months and new repair parts can't be built (production lines were stopped for 10+ years and all personal who worked on them are fired a long time ago etc.)