They're gonna party like it's 1899...

[Meticulous Man]

There are lot's of changes in the world coming. The social system will continue to change also. Definitely it will continue to be more communistic than capitalistic. The market is already failing more everyday.

Interesting that you should find our present society more communistic than capitalistic. Can you explain what you mean by this as it definitely isn't a mainstream view?

[Elok]

Originally posted by Kidicious
There are lot's of changes in the world coming. The social system will continue to change also. Definitely it will continue to be more communistic than capitalistic. The market is already failing more everyday.

Tell that to China, why don't you? Are they a case of having to get worse before getting better?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Aivo½so
Interesting that you should find our present society more communistic than capitalistic. Can you explain what you mean by this as it definitely isn't a mainstream view?

I didn't say more communistic than capitalistic. I just said more communistic. By that I mean that we regulate the economy, we have progressive income tax, we have social security, and most nations have national health care. The barriers have already all been broken. It is already acceptable to do these things. All that has to happen now to achieve a communist society is market failure on a large scale.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Elok
Tell that to China, why don't you? Are they a case of having to get worse before getting better?

I don't think of it as getting worse, because I don't think you can have a communistic society without having a failed capitalistic society.

[Cort Haus]

Progressive income tax, social security, and national health care are social democratic reforms, not communist.

All that has to happen now to achieve a communist society is market failure on a large scale.

And the proletariate will somehow magically self-organise to seize and control the means of production? Large scale market failures without appropriate levels of class-consciousness and an influential vanguard leadership are more likely to yield a degeneration into fascism.

[CrONoS]

On a side note; Kid is right about something.

The state is much more present in the economy than 100 years ago. You just have to check how much is the presence of the state in the GDP. The problem is with Kid thought; It can help the spread of Corporatism. Not Communism.

[CrONoS]

Here a chart;
Expenditure of public administration in % of the GDP.

Kid could be right, until 1996.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Progressive income tax, social security, and national health care are social democratic reforms, not communist.

No way bud. Economic equality was a socialist idea way before there were social democrats. All of those things can not be achieved through the market. Only government involvement can achieve them. That's communism.

All that has to happen now to achieve a communist society is market failure on a large scale.

And the proletariate will somehow magically self-organise to seize and control the means of production? Large scale market failures without appropriate levels of class-consciousness and an influential vanguard leadership are more likely to yield a degeneration into fascism.

Why do you say that? I don't think class-consciousness is as important as democratic minded citizens.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by CrONoS
On a side note; Kid is right about something.

The state is much more present in the economy than 100 years ago. You just have to check how much is the presence of the state in the GDP. The problem is with Kid thought; It can help the spread of Corporatism. Not Communism.

Corporatism is market failure. I disagree that govt involvement causes it. Or maybe you are using a different definition of corporatism than I am.

[Ell_man]

Nationalization of industry(besides healthcare payment) is politically dead. Yes, government does take a larger share of the economy's income than in say.. 1970, but no one believes that the government should run coal mines or steel plants. That belief in socialism is dead. People still distrust markets though, and I see that existing forever. Social democracy has won intellectually. Prepare for tons of regulation and high taxes but government wont be technically running industry.

Kidicious,

Why do you believe that stopping population growth will help communism come about?

[Darius871]

Originally posted by Kidicious
All of those things can not be achieved through the market. Only government involvement can achieve them. That's communism.

I was going to respond to your other posts, but from the above I already know it's just going to boil down to you having idiosyncratic definitions of key terms in the first place, which makes debate impossible. Wasn't there another recent thread where the same exact thing happened?

Government Involvement = Communism?

Could any real communists please chime in against this imposter?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ell_man
Nationalization of industry(besides healthcare payment) is politically dead. Yes, government does take a larger share of the economy's income than in say.. 1970, but no one believes that the government should run coal mines or steel plants. That belief in socialism is dead. People still distrust markets though, and I see that existing forever. Social democracy has won intellectually. Prepare for tons of regulation and high taxes but government wont be technically running industry.

The market is not failing to deliver goods and services at this time. It doesn't take as much as you think it does though. Once things start effecting people's pocketbooks attitudes will change quickly. The largest barrier was moral justification.

Kidicious,

Why do you believe that stopping population growth will help communism come about?

Population growth is a huge factor in economic growth. Economic growth is needed to maintian financial markets. Financial markets are necessary for modern capitalism to function.

[CrONoS]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Corporatism is market failure. I disagree that govt involvement causes it. Or maybe you are using a different definition of corporatism than I am.

Corporatism, as I used it, is when there is a rise in the numbers of lobby & interest groups and their main activities are to influence the government to have more rights, subsidies, quota.

They want their part of the cake bigger, without contributing to make the cake bigger.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by CrONoS
Corporatism, as I use it, is when there is a rise in the numbers of lobby & interest groups and their main activities are to influence the government to have more rights, subsidies, quota.

They want their part of the cake bigger, without contributing to make the cake bigger.

I agree with that aspect, but I don't limit it to lobbying. I think that's only part of it. Generally, it is interest groups using all sorts of means to limit competition, control information and resources and gain power.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Kidicious
I don't think of it as getting worse, because I don't think you can have a communistic society without having a failed capitalistic society.

So China wasn't legitimately communist before? Or is it historically inevitable that certain societies yo-yo back and forth?