Emergency in Pakistan

[Kuciwalker]

Except we can't blame an entire nation b/c of a few nutjobs. Plus there's still the greater likelihood of a launch against India.

You mean like AQ/Taliban/Afghanistan?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Zkribbler

Well, there's that little matter of bin Ladin having declared war on America and having said that every American man, woman and child should be killed. I'd rather he not get his hands on Pakistan's nukes.

And you believe that if Al Qaeda managed to fulfil its ultimate goal of finally having an Islamist government come to power in a Muslim country, that they would immediately ruin what they've spent 40 years working for just for the slim chance of killing some Americans with a nuclear weapon.

Osama bin Laden isn't stupid, and nor is he some James Bond villain.

That's bat**** insane. You've swallowed the insane right wing propaganda hook, line and sinker. Do you not understand Al Qaeda at all? Do you not understand why they did 9/11? I'll give you a clue: it was to get the USA to do something they wanted.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Guynemer
While Pakistan lacks the technology to launch a nuke at the US or Israel, it isn't out of the realm of possibility that a nuke could be smuggled into those countries courtesy of a fundamentalist Islamist regime in Islamabad.

Of course, were that to happen, Pakistan would likely be looking at war not only with the US, but also with the trio of nuclear powers at their doorstep. Bin Laden and his ilk may be bat**** crazy and profoundly evil, but they are not stupid.

Which is exactly why it is the last thing they will do.

Some people in this thread seem to acquire their political beliefs from action comics.

[Elok]

Yes, that's what happens when you foolishly read comics instead of sagely burning them as "reactionary bourgeois propaganda," like you do.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Agathon


Which is exactly why it is the last thing they will do.

Some people in this thread seem to acquire their political beliefs from action comics.

Does Action comics detail the threat to oil supplies that an islamist Pakistan could exert? How about the threat to US friendly governments in the ME? I suppose that the US should take no stand on securing the west's supply of energy?

I mean, if we are the bad guys, then we should just disengage and let the "smart" AQ guys handle things over there right? We, the west, are just incredibly unable to understand anything they do, but they are incredibly savvy at being able to coerce us unknowingly into doing exactly what they want.

Wow...I'm really glad you cleared all that up for me.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
****

[germanos]

Originally posted by PLATO


Does Action comics detail the threat to oil supplies that an islamist Pakistan could exert?

Could you please elaborate on that? To be honest, I have no idea how they would do that.
Could they threathen to glaze Saudi Arabia? No way. No muslim could wantingly nuke Mekka or Riadh.
Could they threathen Iraq? Certainly not with the US present.
Could they threathen Russia?

I think we have half of the worlds oil secured by these three alone. The other half is well without their reach.

[Darius871]

dp

[Darius871]

Originally posted by Agathon
And you believe that if Al Qaeda managed to fulfil its ultimate goal of finally having an Islamist government come to power in a Muslim country, that they would immediately ruin what they've spent 40 years working for just for the slim chance of killing some Americans with a nuclear weapon.

Osama bin Laden isn't stupid, and nor is he some James Bond villain.

That's bat**** insane. You've swallowed the insane right wing propaganda hook, line and sinker. Do you not understand Al Qaeda at all?

And you do? It doesn't take right wing propaganda to conclude that Bin Laden's worldview is fixated on the rising of a monolithic Islamic ummah, not taking over individual states piecemeal. To his ilk the "state" of Pakistan is just another absurd Western fiction intended to keep the Muslim nation weak and divided. This isn't the talking point of some asshat pundit, but from the lips of Bin Laden and al-Zawahiri themselves:

instigate the Ummah of Islam against its' enemies as their ancestor scholars-may Allah be pleased with them ...
Hence it is essential to hit the main enemy who divided the Ummah into small and little countries...
graduates of the colleges of the Shari'ah, are leashed out to mislead and confuse the nation and the Ummah...
increasing the division and the weakness of the Ummah...
people of Islam should join forces and support each other to get rid of the main "Kufr" who is controlling the countries of the Islamic world, even to bear the lesser damage to get rid of the major one, that is the great Kufr...
to fight in defence of religion and Belief is a collective duty; there is no other duty after Belief than fighting the enemy who is corrupting the life and the religion. There is no preconditions for this duty and the enemy should be fought with one's best abilities. If it is not possible to push back the enemy except by the collective movement of the Muslim people, then there is a duty on the Muslims to ignore the minor differences among themselves; the ill effect of ignoring these differences, at a given period of time, is much less than the ill effect of the occupation of the Muslims' land by the main Kufr. Ibn Taymiyyah had explained this issue and emphasised the importance of dealing with the major threat on the expense of the minor one...
the ultimate aim of pleasing Allah, raising His word, instituting His religion and obeying His messenger (ALLAH'S BLESSING AND SALUTATIONS ON HIM) is to fight the enemy, in every aspects and in a complete manner...
To repel the greatest of the two dangers on the expense of the lesser one is an Islamic principle which should be observed...
Also to remind the Muslims not to be engaged in an internal war among themselves, as that will have grave consequences...
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/terroris...atwa_1996.html

We want to reclaim our nation...
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...den.transcript

I advise myself and the Islamic nation not to follow individuals and countries. Everything should be seen in the light of Islam...
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/...in.laden.tape/

This war is fundamentally religious. The people of the East are Muslims. They sympathized with Muslims against the people of the West, who are the crusaders. Those who try to cover this crystal clear fact, which the entire world has admitted, are deceiving the Islamic nation. They are trying to deflect the attention of the Islamic nation from the truth of this conflict...
The masses which moved in the East and West...
What terrorism are they speaking about at a time when the Islamic nation has been slaughtered for tens of years...
anesthetized the Islamic nation to prevent it from carrying out the duty of jihad...
long series of crusader wars against the Islamic world...
Those who distinguish between America and Israel are the real enemies of the nation...They anesthetize the nation...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/mon...ts/1636782.stm

These actions were carried out by the zealous sons of Islam in defence of their religion...
The Islamic nation, thanks to God, has started to attack...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2455845.stm

But unfortunately, a decade later, the [Islamic] nation – particularly the clerics, preachers, and sermonizers, and Islamic universities – did not meet the obligation. Those who came to the land of Jihad in order to support the Muslims and the Mujahideen were a small handful of the youth of the [Islamic] nation...
an Islamic state could easily have been established according to Islamic, not national or geographic, standards...
this nation has sufficient forces to establish the Islamic state and the Islamic Caliphate...
There are people who say, and it is no secret, that the Jihad does not require the [participation] of the entire nation; these words are true, but their intent is not...
telegrams are sent from the rulers to these clerics, praising them for deceiving the nation...
The nation has never been as damaged by a catastrophe like the one that damages them today...
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cg...=sd&ID=SP53903

This battle is not between al Qaeda and the U.S. This is a battle of Muslims against the global crusaders...
This has nothing to do with this poor servant of God, nor with the al Qaeda organization. We are the children of an Islamic nation whose leader is Mohammed. We have one religion, one God, one book, one prophet, one nation. Our book teaches us to be brothers of a faith. All the Muslims are brothers.,,,
We speak about the conscience of the nation; we are the sons of the nation. We brothers in Islam from the Middle East, Philippines, Malaysia, India, Pakistan and as far as Mauritania. Those men who sacrificed themselves in New York and Washington, they are the spokesmen of the nation's conscience. They are the nation's conscience that saw they have to avenge..
We are a part of that nation...Our goal is for our nation to unite in the face of the Christian crusade...
[b]Q: What do you think of the so-called "war of civilizations"? You always keep repeating "crusaders" and words like that all the time. Does that mean you support the war of civilizations?
BIN LADEN: No doubt about that...

In this fighting between Islam and the crusaders, we will continue our jihad. We will incite the nation
The killing of Jews and Americans is one of the greatest duties.
Our brothers in Pakistan and their actions will facilitate our attack on the coalition of crusaders...
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/a...en.transcript/

Musharraf’s insistence on continuing his loyalty, submissiveness and aid to America against the Muslims...
They have sold the Islamic nation, colluded with the enemies of Islam...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20880736/

they have to know that they are outside this Islamic nation. Jordan and Morocco and Nigeria and Saudi Arabia should be careful that this war, this crusade, is attacking the people of Islam first...
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/...sprj.irq.wrap/

The International Islamic Front for Jihad against the U.S. and Israel has, by the grace of God, issued a crystal-clear fatwah calling on the Islamic nation...
The nation of Muhammad has responded to this appeal...
Confident that the Islamic nation will carry out its duty...
We are confident that the Muslim nation would rid Islamic countries of the Americans and the Jews...
If I seek to acquire [chemical and nuclear] weapons, this is a religious duty. How we use them is up to us...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ho/edicts.html

All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah, his messenger, and all Muslims...
fatwa to all Muslims...
call on every Muslim...
http://information-retrieval.info/do...statement.html

Our Islamic nation was surprised to find its knight...
Even if we lost one of our greatest knights and and princes, we are happy that we have found a symbol for our great Islamic nation...
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...cle1150108.ece

We will continue, God willing, to fight you and your allies everywhere, in Iraq and Afghanistan and in Somalia and Sudan until we waste all your money and kill your men.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5131818.stm

The mujahideen are the children of this nation...
I advise our brothers, particularly those in al Qaeda wherever they may be, to avoid fanatically following a person or a group. The strength of faith is in the strength of the bond between Muslims and not that of a tribe, nationalism or an organization...
The interest of the Islamic nation surpasses that of a group...the interest of the (Islamic) nation is more important than that of a state...
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNe...rpc=22&sp=true

Now you seriously tell me after reading the above (although I'm sure you won't bother ) that we're dealing with an ideology that would have any qualms about sacrificing one Pakistani "state" for what are perceived to be the greater interests of the Islamic "nation." I'd find such a sacrifice perfectly consistent, and yet somehow I've never in my life watched Fox News, listened to talk radio, browsed a right-wing blog, or even perused an action comic... hmm...

[Geronimo]

Even though I'm sure aggy was just indulging in some half-arsed trolling I think we need to be careful not to lose site of just how extremist the islamic extremists are revealed to be by the sorts of quotes darius has posted.

Also don't forget there was a time that people dismissed the possibility of suicide jetliner hijacking as absurd given the self interests of the hijackers. It is perilous to assume everybody ultimately behaves as a logical reasonable actor.

[Barnabas]

Arent all the other possible rulers of Pakistan much worse than Mush? He is a dictator worth supporting imo

No one wants crazy islamists with nucular power

[PLATO]

Originally posted by germanos


Could you please elaborate on that? To be honest, I have no idea how they would do that.
Could they threathen to glaze Saudi Arabia? No way. No muslim could wantingly nuke Mekka or Riadh.
Could they threathen Iraq? Certainly not with the US present.
Could they threathen Russia?

I think we have half of the worlds oil secured by these three alone. The other half is well without their reach.

Very simply...you don't have to directly attack a country to threaten it's interest with nuclear weapons. I would think that nuking a couple of supertankers in the straights would effectively cripple the west's energy pipeline.

I believe that you are looking only at the strategic nature of nuclear weapons, when the tactical uses would serve islamofacism much better.

Further, the threatened or actual proliferation of weapons technology or material becomes much much greater under an islamofacist Pakistan.

Finally, I believe, through terrorist clients, that nearly all of your laughable targets become real possibilities if islamofacist come to power in Pakistan ( I would imagine that Mecca and Riyadah would probably be safe).

Now, all that being said, I also believe that there would be immediate and intense pressure from all corners of the world to have assurances on the access and control of Pakistan's existing arsenal, technological base, and material. I share everyone's hope that it would turn into a non-issue...but we must all reconize the fact that it is a hope and not a certainty by any stretch.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Barnabas
No one wants crazy islamists with nucular power

I refer you to the opposition to sanctions on Iran as a counter example.

[LordShiva]

Teh likelihood of Islamists taking power in Pakistan is slim.

Teh likelihood of US and Indian air power and special ops on either side of Pakistan not taking out Pakistan's nuclear assets in such an eventuality is slimmer.

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by Agathon


Why do you care if the Islamists have a few? The Americans and Israelis have them, and they are clearly insane, racist, anti-democratic human rights violators.

They're less likely to blow me up. Sure, it'd be nice if no one had them, but that cat's out of the bag already, isn't it now?

Arent all the other possible rulers of Pakistan much worse than Mush? He is a dictator worth supporting imo

Maybe true had he been able to keep power without measures such as these, but as he starts going into more and more draconian stuff, the situation will be unsustainable.