Law School

[Jon Miller]

I was asking how much you could sleep...

JM

[Alinestra Covelia]

I'm in my second year at law school. I have to say my school does not fit the stereotype of "cutthroat competition", and I gather other law schools also are adopting a more "nurture, not attrition" approach.

I came to law school knowing very little about the industry and the way the job selection process works. I'll tell you what I know, and I hope that I'm not repeating anything that's already obvious to you. I certainly know I had NO CLUE WHATSOEVER about this when I was in the first year!

The first thing to know about law school is you learn the basics of law, but you won't be able to use that in your work just as it is - even if you're an "A" student. Each state has its own jurisdictional differences, so it's not feasible for a law school to teach you hard and fast laws for you to go out and practice on your own.

What law schools actually do (and I know it's a horrid cliche, but it's true) is to teach you to "think like a lawyer". Classes are generally based on looking at statutes that are very vague, and then looking at cases where courts struggle to interpret them. This dynamic is common wherever you practice (except perhaps in rapidly developing fields like Intellectual Property law, perhaps) so the skill you retain is how to approach a problem when you're out there yourself.

[Learning the actual law for the states comes at a later stage - the bar exam. The law school generally doesn't assist at all in this process. You'll have to sign onto a third party course to take them - examples include BarBri, MPBR, and Shemin Review. Most students graduate and then sign on for one of these courses during the summer after, and then hopefully pass. You can retake it but most law firms and government jobs will require you to pass some bar exam within one year of graduation, otherwise all job offers are revoked.]

Good work on aceing the LSAT, by the way. That already puts you in a different playing field.

As for jobs, this was my experience. First year is very important if you want to get into a big prestigious law firm. You have to come out of the gate ready to get really good grades. Most top flight law firms require top class percentages before they'll even give you an interview. These can range from top 33% to top 5%, with about 20% being the average that I saw.

(And no, I'm not in the top 33%, so I haven't gotten a top flight law firm job.)

If you're lucky and smart and do well in exams and interviews, you get a summer associateship, which means the firm takes you on and pays you to work for them and hopes to lure you back each following summer until you graduate and then they give you a firm job upon graduation and getting your bar certificate. Then you get to become a first year associate.

The deadline for most of these firms is to apply by about February in your first year to work in the summer of first year. The most important summer however is second year summer, and if you want a big firm job you have to start interviewing in summer first year or fall second year. Most of them conclude their offers by about October or November in your second year.

That's only for the big law firms. If you are like the rest of the more fallible human beings who attend law school like myself, then you may want to aim for midsized and small sized law firms. The experience there can be quite different. These smaller law firms do not have a formal calendar, and they tend not to advertise as much as the big ones. You have to be more proactive in pursuing them and hoping that when an opening comes up, they'll think of you.

Working at a big firm usually means your experience is a bit like an apprenticeship - there's usually a well delineated assignment routine, where they have you trained to become part of the firm. Working at a midsized or smaller firm is different - they may well throw you into the deep end and have you working on something really early.

Government jobs are like big firm jobs in that most agencies will have a training program. They are also very strict with deadlines and application formats. These tend to pay slightly less than big firm jobs, but like most government jobs the job security is good. And many people like to do these for the sense of civic service it brings.

Many people go into the judicial circuits - clerking for judges and arbitrators. This pays less well than government agency jobs but is very valued as experience. Many people who go through the judicial circuit end up in private practice, especially with commercial law firms that have to deal with that particular government branch or court, and who value an insider's experience.

While you're at law school, make sure you get involved. Don't become a recluse, beavering away at your studies at the expense of joining in events. Help organize things in your first year. Take part in the political or governmental or ethnic student bodies at your law school. Run for office. Do things that will pad your resume, impress your professors, and make contacts with law students who will be your future colleagues in the workplace.

Treat your studies with respect and diligence, but don't get hung up if your grades aren't all "A"s. You're competing against some very intelligent people, and not everybody can be top gradewise. There are other ways of impressing an employer with your participation in other fields, or language skills, or a clear knowledge of what law you want to practice. A "B" student who speaks different languages and who knows they want to do International Corporate Law, for example, will definitely make an impression on a relevant law firm that (say) an "A" student who's otherwise clueless will not.

That's about all I can think up right now. Suffice it to say, lawyering is one of those careers that you won't starve. Unlike, say, journalism.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Darius871


Ha, I caught that article a few weeks back. I'd like to think those figures are no surprise for any law student, but based on some of the whining in the article I guess not.

Anyone who thinks they're somehow entitled to enter practice after graduation is in for one hell of a rude awakening, not to mention about a decade of enslavement by garnishments to recover their charged-off student debts. Unless you A) already have a good job, B) snag a scholarship, or C) are guaranteed to end up in the top 20% of your class, law school these days is a foolish gamble.

Yup, unfortunately I think a lot of people do feel entitled to starting out at 150grand.

Good luck with that one.

[flash9286]

Yeah, I read that article a couple weeks ago. With my LSAT and GPA I think I can get into a top ten, I don't know if I could finish in the top of my class at one of those schools though.

[Alinestra Covelia]

I don't have the issue in front of me, but I recall the Fall 2006 issue of the National Jurist (national law student magazine) posting some salary data:

Average postgraduate degree holder salary: $50k
Average salary of one who has passed a bar: $75k
(they broke that one down by ethnicity and gender and found that white male JD holders make slightly more, and ethnic minorities and women make slightly less)
Upper level income for first year associates at a major law firm: $160k

For what it's worth, at my last job I had a postgraduate degree and was making less than $30k per year. I loved the work, and the prior small salary means I'm fairly sanguine about my own future career prospects even if it's not the highest of the high.

[flash9286]

Thank you for the post Alinestra Covelia, very helpful post . And Asleepathewheel and Darius.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
Yup, unfortunately I think a lot of people do feel entitled to starting out at 150grand.

If I go to law school I won't be surprised to start out at over six figures, and I wouldn't have more than ~30k in debt at worst.

[Darius871]

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia Suffice it to say, lawyering is one of those careers that you won't starve.

That's the only part I'd take exception with. There's no shortage of J.D.'s stuck with McJobs these days, just struggling to pay off their student loans. Not to mention older ex-lawyers that stressed themselves into the nutterbin.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Re: Law School

Originally posted by flash9286
So, I did well on the LSAT but I don't know if I really want to be a lawyer or go to law school. If anybody here has been to law school, how was it? Is it really as bad as everybody makes it out to be? And if you have graduated doing you enjoy being a lawyer?

Law schools can be VERY different from place to place. You will have to find out from someone who went to the specific school. I went to a classic movie type highly seletive pressure cooker type law school, which was fine becasue I was immune to the pressure. Being a lawyer or even just a law graduate is great, even if you do not practice. It is an enormously empowering filed of study, very useful in many different fields.

[Riesstiu IV]

More like lawl school.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Meh... I didn't find 1st year to be all that hellish. It was a lot of work, true, but it was generally pretty interesting stuff. Though it could be that my law school isn't that cutthroat.

[Alinestra Covelia]

Originally posted by Darius871


That's the only part I'd take exception with. There's no shortage of J.D.'s stuck with McJobs these days, just struggling to pay off their student loans. Not to mention older ex-lawyers that stressed themselves into the nutterbin.

Well, compared to journalism at least...

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by flash9286
Yeah, I read that article a couple weeks ago. With my LSAT and GPA I think I can get into a top ten, I don't know if I could finish in the top of my class at one of those schools though.

Awesome, then things will be much easier for you then, at least if you can survive law school, you'll have it made.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


If I go to law school I won't be surprised to start out at over six figures, and I wouldn't have more than ~30k in debt at worst.

Good for you.

Unfortunately, the kind of law that I love, criminal law, is particularly low paying, at least until you have years of experience.

[Alinestra Covelia]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel




Good for you.

Unfortunately, the kind of law that I love, criminal law, is particularly low paying, at least until you have years of experience.

Well, looking on the bright side, I have heard from firm partners that ANY sort of litigation experience is good. One firm partner was in his late 50s and said he worked as a public prosecutor for a small wage, for about 14 years.

Once he went private, the firms fought over him and brought him in on near their top payscale. If you can prove that you can demolish the opposition in court, firms need you. Simple as that.