Are you a patriot?

[BeBMan]

If it means that I like my country, then yes I am. If it means that would defend it for doing stupid or indefensible stuff, then no. Actually, people who claim to really like a country should be concerned when it (or its guvmint/whatever) is going down a wrong path, and not be afraid of being called un-patriotic when pointing that out.

[Harovan]

Simple formula: I love my country, I hate my state. Yes I'm a patriot. Not a flag waving monkey, however. That flag means nothing to me. I don't even sport it at Apolyton.

[Vesayen]

Consider this.

You can be unhappy with the country as it is now and still a patriot. The country does not fit the ideal, but I support that the ideal should exist.

I am a patriot, even if I am disgusted with my country.

[DAVOUT]

For me patriotism is not an abstraction; it is a matter of loyalty to individuals : my family that I want to protect and my friends with whom I want to share the risks of the fight.
I had once to make that choice : most of my friends were or have been in Algeria, and although I was far from being sure that it was the "right thing to do", I could not decide to escape.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by Alexander I
I think he's talking about the pre-Utah movement. The attacks the Mormons suffered in Missouri and Illinois, especially. I guess you could count sending the Federal army to Utah on the eve of the Civil War if you really wanted (but nobody ever said James Buchanan was a bright president). Joseph Smith never actually set foot in Utah, btw.

Smith died when he fired blindly into an angry crowd... yeah, that's the way to win friends and influence people.

As for the rest of the Mormons, when did the Constitution come into play? Did they take their case to the Federal courts on up to the Supreme Court? No.

Did they take to arms permitted them by the 2nd Amendment? Yes. Seems like we believe in the Constitution after all.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Simple formula: I love my country, I hate my state. Yes I'm a patriot. Not a flag waving monkey, however. That flag means nothing to me. I don't even sport it at Apolyton.

Luckily for me I can fly the flag of my country on here without it being my state.

[Dis]

I'm not defending Smith. He was a boozer and womanizer. Though those aren't necessarily bad qualities . Most likely he was a *****. People were threatened by losing political power to the mormons. The governor backed the masses as did the president.

You'd think the courts would do something, but that is the mormons fault for not sueing I suppose and bringing the case all the way to the supreme court if need be.

Things are better now, we have organizations like the ACLU who will sue in your behalf if you lack the money. ACLU does some strange things, but they are good for this country.

the good thing is we are the closest to the ideals set forth in the constitution than we ever were. It's just the past I'm ashamed of.

[Alinestra Covelia]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Simple formula: I love my country, I hate my state. Yes I'm a patriot. Not a flag waving monkey, however. That flag means nothing to me. I don't even sport it at Apolyton.

Two points:

1. What's wrong with monkeys? Eh? EH?!?!

2. I agree with your distinction, though I would have framed it differently. I saw a bumper sticker that impressed me with its text: I love my country but I fear my government. I think it applies equally well to the three states that I consider home (USA, UK, and PRChina).

For a long time I used to think Mormons were a type of canteloupe.

[Theben]

Do you work towards making your country be what you envision it should be? Yes? Then you are a patriot. Otherwise no.

[CivGeneral]

Yes, eventhough Neocons and supporters of Bush and the Iraqi war tell me that I am not on the grounds that I oppose the war .

[kittenOFchaos]

Originally posted by Cort Haus


Luckily for me I can fly the flag of my country on here without it being my state.

A guy with a cannon as his avatar was unlikely not to consider himself patriotic.

A guys with a ship of the line also

[Kuken]

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"
- Howard Zinn

[David Floyd]

One thing I am proud of my country for is the Marshall plan. It was just a great thing to do.

Seems a little odd that the only thing you mentioned you like about the US is a situation where we helped others rebuild a continent, following a war they basically started. I know that's simplistic, but my point is, the US doesn't and shouldn't exist to give away billions of dollars to needy people, and if that's the only thing you like, that's a weird way of looking at things.

To bring you back to reality, we did not implement the Marshall Plan out of altruism or generosity. We did it in part to build a barrier against communism and related geo-political interests, and in part out of our own economic interests.

I think the Marshall Plan was great because it strengthened the US in the long term, and helped weaken the spread of communism. That's why I could give a **** less about foreign aid to sub-Saharan Africa (as an example), because it provides very little tangible benefit to the US or to me.

To say that we exist to simply help others, and to actually operate that way, is a quick way to go straight down the tubes economically.

[Dis]

Yes I know it had the added effect of thwarting communism. But that was just a bonus.

And there are those who say it didn't have much effect at all and Europe would have rebounded anyways, as did virtually all post war economies.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by David Floyd
To say that we exist to simply help others, and to actually operate that way, is a quick way to go straight down the tubes economically.

Helping others helps ourselves, and it of course makes a better world. The Marshall Plan was genious. Our economy did great.

Dis

Marshall Plan

Helping people

USA