Are you a patriot?

[Dis]

I'm becoming really disillusioned with the U.S. Not wholly because of the current president, but because of its history. I've always known about the bad things the U.S. has done in its past, but I never really went into much detail. Having done that recently, I'm appalled. It seems that freedom of religion didn't really exist in america for almost all of its history. Other personal liberties were almost non existant as well. But what really appalled me is governors and presidents knew about this, but did nothing. Some even encouraged it. The thing I was researching recently by the way, was Joseph Smith and the mormon movement. Yeah they are a bunch of crackpots, but shouldn't crackpots be allowed to exist in this country? Seems to me the majority has the right to do whatever it wants to the minority, just because they are the majority.

How can I respect a country that claims the constitution is the all important document, but almost never follows it?

It's all about power, people can care less about laws, and constitutions. Yes I suppose I've been naive in this regard. Power has been the guiding force since the dawn of man. It was silly to me to think that people would obey the laws they write.

I'm completely ashamed of my country's history. And I no longer care for the United States. So you say I should love it or leave it? I stay here for economic reasons. It's cheaper to stay here than move to another continent. I would move to Canada, but they are really picky about who they let in. I do not meet the qualifications. I doubt I would be allowed in Australia either. England maybe? Most other countries have a language barrier, and I don't have the ability to learn another language (I'm still trying to learn English ).

I stay here not out of some great respect for the U.S., but out of convenience. I would only fight for this country if someone actually threatened its borders, and then not out of love for country, but out of protecting my way of life. That said, if the conquerer was a nation with a better way of life, I might stand aside and let them in.

[Donegeal]

Time to change your name back to Dissident.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Donegeal
Time to change your name back to Dissident.

yep

[Riesstiu IV]

I'm not really ashamed of our history because our actions were fairly standard for western nations for many decades.

I am disillusioned with is our politicians who seem to be driving America down the ****ter at an alarming rate. They don't seem to care about making America a economically sustainable. They'll freely allow companies to buy and trade with the Chi coms but won't lift a finger to protect American industries. They allow illegal immigration to go unchecked creating massive assimilation problems in border states. They don't seem to care that every year we import more and more oil when it is rapidly becoming apparent that the American way of life is not sustainable.

There is a lot I like about America but our government isn't one of them.

[Wezil]

Re: Are you a patriot?

Originally posted by Dis
I would move to Canada, but they are really picky about who they let in, legally.

Fixed.

We're not too picky about the rest.

[Zkribbler]

The sad thing is that the U.S. is one of the leading nations in freedoms.

Before the American Revolution, virtually all the nations of the worlds were monarchies, dictatorships, or some such. Freedom of religion was almost unheard of. If you had a minority religion, the best you could be hoped for was to be tolerated. One of the complaints of our founding fathers is that their churches were taxed to support the Church of England.

It was the U.S. that first espoused the ideals of the Enlightenment, i.e. the people are the sovereigns, not the rulers; the good of the people is what's important, people have "rights" where governments cannot tread.

Our ideals spead to other nations, and now are embraced by most of the industialized world.

What you pointed out was the effect of people being hypocrits. And they are. The Mormons were one of many oppressed minorities. For an eye-opener, read Martin Luther King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail."

Human beings are not made of crystal and stainless steel. They're made of flesh and blood which are flawed material. We don't often live up to our ideals...but we do have ideals.

But being flawed doesn't mean we give up. It means we must be vigilant against our weaknesses. It means we have to try harder.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
Human beings are not made of crystal and stainless steel. They're made of flesh and blood which are flawed material. We don't often live up to our ideals...but we do have ideals.

If we don't live up to our ideals they aren't really our ideals, and we don't trully believe in them. It comes down to rhetoric and propaganda.

Flesh and blood are not flawed material. They simply are what they are.

[germanos]

I'm loyal to my Banana.

That's hard enough.

[quantum_mechani]

Patriotism is flawed in any case, being devoted to rights is commendable, but that does not translate to being devoted to any particular nation.

[Aeson]

There's 2 sides to the Mormon story, and probably neither is the (whole) truth. There were a lot of good people persecuted unjustly, because of some bad folk that deserved to be brought to justice.

That is the problem with loyalty to a collective. People get caught up in supporting the group, and fail to see (or properly deal with) the unjust actions of those within their own group, and often unfairly treat the just people within "opposing" groups as if they were the criminals.

And that is the reason why, even if the US was perfect, I still wouldn't be a Patriot.

Loyalty to ideals

[Spec]

Poll is invalid.

It should have been like a survey:

I am a Patriot.

Do you totally agree with that sentence?
Do you agree with that sentence?
Do you partially agree with that sentence?
Do you practically disagree with that sentence?
Do you completly disagree with that sentence?

I dont think its a white or black question.

I can be patriotic for many reason and unpatriotic for many others.

Being patriotic in my mind is someone that will stand up for its country. I'll stand up for my friends...depending on what they did. I wont take sides with an *******.

You see?

Basically I'd say yea, I am, in the case where we get invaded. If we were to invade someone for no good reason, like money/resources/territory, I would'nt feel all that patriotic.

Spec.

[Ecthy]

He should have asked if others agree that he is a patriot?

[Cort Haus]

Get back to Russia, Dis.

Seriously though, as Spec says it's not black-and-white. It's possible to love your country but not your ruling class. As the ruling class often tend to define patriotism in their interests, this can be unhelpful.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Get back to Russia, Dis.

Seriously though, as Spec says it's not black-and-white. It's possible to love your country but not your ruling class. As the ruling class often tend to define patriotism in their interests, this can be unhelpful.

But the ruling class also defined the nation.

[Perfection]

Yes, but for the enemy