Turkey approved military action against Kurdish separatists

[Kuciwalker]

If Turkey had been attacked by the Soviet Union everyone would have suddenly agreed it was in Europe.

[Ancyrean]

There's near universal support in Turkey for an incursion into Northern Iraq and a lot of pent up public frustration against a string of PKK attacks over the past year which caused large numbers of casualties. As a result, the government is under immense pressure to do something about it.

By discussing an "incursion", the general understanding in Turkey is to send troops into that part of Northern Iraq where PKK bases are located. There's no serious talk in the Turkish press nor by the government to invade the whole Kurdish area, which really does not serve the purpose at hand, i.e. destroy the PKK.

The area controlled by the PKK is called the Mt. Kandil, near the confluence of Turkish-Iraqi-Iranian borders. It's some 90 kms (56 miles) from the Turkish border, hugging the Iraqi-Iranian border. The PKK is reportedly holding a sizeable area there with some 9-10 villages under their control.

The thing is that the Kandil terrain is said to be extremely treacherous, with many caves, gullies and at some places vegetation to provide for excellent opportunities for prolongued guerilla warfare. The PKK have been digging themselves in for years because much is at stake for them. They have their hospitals, military training grounds, logistics depots and what not all built in this region, mostly in caves though so that you can't see these from the air.

As a result, now that the parliament authorised miltary action, there's now much talk about intensified aerial and special forces reconnaisance to locate hard targets, air strikes on these and pinpoint airborne special forces assaults on critical spots in the region. One downside is that the season's turning fast into winter in the region, so time might already have run out for significant military operations. It's not for nothing, I guess, that the first thing the Prime Minister said after the parliament's vote was "this doesn't mean we're going in tomorrow".

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
This is the language of Article 5:



Wow, Turkey is so reamed. Almost all of their country is in Asia. So unless Istambul is attacked, they don't get to call for help.

You know... they did think of that...

http://www.nato.int/docu/basictxt/bt-a1.htm

If the Republic of Turkey becomes a Party to the North Atlantic Treaty, Article 6 of the Treaty shall, as from the date of the deposit by the Government of the Republic of Turkey of its instruments of accession with the Government of the United States of America, be modified to read as follows:

For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:

1. on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France, on the territory of Turkey or on the islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;

2. on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in whicH occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
... unless that brings them into contact with US forces in Iraq.

1) They wouldn't be dumb enough to do that

2) Nothing in the North Atlantic Treaty refers to conflicts between treaty parties. The NAT was designed to deal with collective security in the case of an invasion by an external power. One can try to invoke Article 5 if, say, Greece invades Turkey, but I'm not sure how it'd be all that different if, say, Iran invades Turkey. Perhaps the only change would be Greece may get tossed out of NATO.

[Kuciwalker]

2) Nothing in the North Atlantic Treaty refers to conflicts between treaty parties.

I reread the text of the treaty, and this is correct. I'm surprised; I had recalled that there was an explicit provision proscribing war between members.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


You know... they did think of that...

http://www.nato.int/docu/basictxt/bt-a1.htm

If the Republic of Turkey becomes a Party to the North Atlantic Treaty, Article 6 of the Treaty shall, as from the date of the deposit by the Government of the Republic of Turkey of its instruments of accession with the Government of the United States of America, be modified to read as follows:

For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:

1. on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France, on the territory of Turkey or on the islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;

2. on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in whicH occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.

I didn't know that. I was reading the original text.

[onodera]

Originally posted by Ancyrean
The area controlled by the PKK is called the Mt. Kandil, near the confluence of Turkish-Iraqi-Iranian borders. It's some 90 kms (56 miles) from the Turkish border, hugging the Iraqi-Iranian border. The PKK is reportedly holding a sizeable area there with some 9-10 villages under their control.

The thing is that the Kandil terrain is said to be extremely treacherous, with many caves, gullies and at some places vegetation to provide for excellent opportunities for prolongued guerilla warfare. The PKK have been digging themselves in for years because much is at stake for them. They have their hospitals, military training grounds, logistics depots and what not all built in this region, mostly in caves though so that you can't see these from the air.

Cannot they just clusterbomb the whole region until it's a glass desert? They're just Kurds, you can do that if you don't have oil in your country.

[Patroklos]

I didn't know that. I was reading the original text.

I always assumed that since a portion of Turkey was in Europe they were covered, I didn't realize they needed a specific modification.

I have learned something

[Dinner]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7050918.stm

The Iraqi government has asked the PKK to leave Iraq immediately so that Turkey does not invade.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Oerdin

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7050918.stm

The Iraqi government has asked the PKK to leave Iraq immediately so that Turkey do not invade.

and go where? this is probably one of the most idiotic statements a person calling himself a politician ever made

[Dinner]

Of course. The PKK won't leave because they have no where else to go but the Iraqi government doesn't have the military means to push them out and even if they did the peshmerga likely wouldn't let them so public calls are all the Iraqis have.

The US could do it but they don't want to piss off the Kurds so the reality is everyone knows the Turks will have to do it. The Us will no doubt privately give the Turks the green light to go a certain distance into Iraq for a certain amount of time while publicly saying the Turks need to withdraw. It's just politics.

There will be no clashes between US or Turkish troops, the incursion will be coordinated well in advance, and the US likely even us special forces to help locate rebel Kurdish locations. Of course the US won't want any of this becoming public.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Oerdin

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7050918.stm

The Iraqi government has asked the PKK to leave Iraq immediately so that Turkey does not invade.

Bwahahahaha!

[MarkG]

this sounds like a Rambo movie

[notyoueither]

I'm fairly certain Rambo never said 'bwahahahahaha'.

[MarkG]

i was replying to oerdin....