History of Martial Arts 10-6-2007

[Grandpa Troll]

Weapons-Kubaton

Here is a picture of a Kubaton, or at least an example of one.

You could simply use a piece of wood, a heavy duty inkpen, or similar instrument (short piece of rebar), basically 5-6 inches long 1/2 " to 3/4" in diameter, used for submission holds via pressure points or striking at key release points, I carried one as a Lawman, used to offer a first response, say someone poked you with a finger, great for putting them down or hitting them in throat or more effectively, the jawbone or even driving it into the solar plexus. The elbow-floating rib combo is one I used on so many occassions walking someone out of a club or residence.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Well, to mix things up a bit...

I think the past 15 years or so have shown that the only truly effective fighting style is one that combines submission grappling with a combat striking style, such as Muay Thai, or even boxing. Show me one top flight, sensei-level traditional martial artist who could get into the ring with someone like Chuck Liddell, Vanderlai Silva, Kazushi Sakuraba, Royce Gracie, or a number of others. Sakuraba and Gracie weren't/aren't really even strikers, but Gracie easily defeated a number of traditional martial artists (Kung Fu, Karate, and TKD styles) in the early UFCs, and Sakuraba in his prime was probably ahead of Gracie.

That isn't to say that traditional styles aren't valuable, or even effective, for the average person, just that when we are talking about effective FIGHTING styles, the top of the pyramid is a combined submission grappling/combat striking system.

OK, there's my pot stirring for a while

Ooo, ooooo! Mr. Caahtaah, I know dis one!

UFC and the like, even in its early forms, is still a sport. That means nobody was striking to injure. Eye gouges, hitting below the belt, and other strikes were forbidden. If I'm fighting to defend myself or my family I'm not going to say, "Let's be gentlemen and not kick each other in the crotch."

I guarantee you, on the battlefield you aren't going to be going for a kamora while he's jamming his thumb in your eyesocket and raking the nail across your cornea.

[Grandpa Troll]

Actually, in training and also in competitive Kumite, you train to pull punches from what may be lethal.

Full contact you do just that, short of maiming someone.

I am not a Grand master, but I can attest, i was an instructor and also led a small travelling demonstration team.

I specialized in one step sparring, basically demonstrated various one step moves to take someone out.

No, this doesnt mean stop every person out there, it means one step and then you gradually excel to doing multiple m oves on someone.

I also handled take downa nd submission holds.

I am just asking, have you ever or have you ever seen, a person put to sleep?

The difference between putting a submission hold or technique into play is the difference between a real deathmatch or a simple competition.

Imparting pain upon a persons joints and pressure points is controled to some extent in training.

I can only share what i know, have seen or done, in a real combat situations, a choke hold may be the only way to stop someone dead in their tracks, and I tell you, its as effective, moreso than punching or kicking someone.

Just sharing my friend, is all i am doing

Gramps

[Straybow]

I believe any technique has its place, GT.

Fortunately for me I've never been in combat or even a serious fight. I train with the Company of Maisters, recreating Medieval/Renaissance armed and unarmed combat techniques. (No affiliation with "twig twirlers" as our Maister has called some historical re-enactment or simulation organizations that shall remain unnamed.)

We practice and sometimes spar with hardwood and with rebated steel. The home chapters in England fight a tourney with hardwood at the Cotswold Games. (The twig-twirlers present decline the invitation to participate.)

Our curriculum is developed from surviving documents. "One step" techniques are no Eastern or modern invention. There are a few jointlock/break moves, too. We train in modern methods, including submission holds and counters, as a matter of completeness.

Traditional CofM teaching on the matter is that it is preferable to stay on one's feet. Knocking someone down is preferable to taking someone down. Stomping on joints and ribs will disable a foe as effectively as a chokehold, arguably more quickly, and allows you to maintain your mobility in the presence of other combatants.

English teaching is not alone in this regard. Ninjutsu is similar, prefering to use joint locks and breaks to drop an opponent quickly without leaving your feet. (The local Ninjutsu class meets at the same time as mine so I can't study with them, but my roommate does and we frequently practice together.)

[Grandpa Troll]

Krav Maga of the Israeli Commandos

Thanks for the participation Straybow!

http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Video_Clips&display_order=1&content_type_id=55083&mini_id=54986

Krav Maga of the Israeli Commandos

[Grandpa Troll]

Muay Thai Video

http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Video_Clips&display_order=1&content_type_id=55212&mini_id=54986

[Grandpa Troll]

Karate

http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Video_Clips&display_order=1&content_type_id=55082&mini_id=54986

[Grandpa Troll]

Savate

http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Video_Clips&display_order=1&content_type_id=55333&mini_id=54986

This aint no joke folks, I have known true competitors and they hit fast and they hit HARD!

[Grandpa Troll]

Pankration

http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Video_Clips&display_order=1&content_type_id=55538&mini_id=54986

[Grandpa Troll]

Eskrima Stick Fighting

http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Video_Clips&display_order=1&content_type_id=55080&mini_id=54986

I found this most interesting, amazing how these masters perform!!

[Straybow]

Hehehe, I liked the guy wrestling the water buffalo!

[Lord Avalon]

Originally posted by Straybow
Hehehe, I liked the guy wrestling the water buffalo!

That was interesting training.

I've seen those "Human Weapon" episodes. Krava Maga was intense!

[Dr Strangelove]

Is there any historical evidence that farmers trained in martial arts were ever a match for trained troops? After all remember that the "Boxers" of China were easily overcome by a relatively small rescue expedition hastily thrown together from the consular guards of a half dozen European nations.

[David Floyd]

Well, the Ninjas in Japan were very effective, and they fought troops/guards who were presumably trained. Of course, they relied on stealth. I'd say that any well-trained martial artist can take on your average soldier in one-on-one combat, if he can take ranged weapons out of the mix, and none of the soldier's buddies are around.