Anime Apolyton

[Jon Miller]

It didn't seem to be the point of the anime, although it features strongly. Which surprises me since the wiki says that there isn't fan service.

JM

[The Mad Monk]

DaShi, Dashi, Dashi. What have I done to you, to make you treat me so?

Two episodes is an admittedly short viewing time, but it has utterly failed to impress.

There is not one character who has earned my interest or sympathy.

Spoiler:

We have a bored honor student who blithely starts "killing all the bad people" so he can eventually be a god, a bored death god who drops the death note in the first place because he has nothing better to do, a subservient mother obviously living vicariously through his grades and little else, and a "secret investigator", presumably the hero of the piece, who show nearly as callous a disregard for human life as the student.

The investigator is beyond belief. The act through which he shows his vaunted brilliance in the second episode rested on so many assumptions, not the least of which that his target would be watching live TV at the moment in the first place, that it's success amounts to a deus ex machina.

The meeting of world law enforcement agencies, as a whole, reminded me of Lupin III, and not in a good way.

There's plenty more I could comment on, maybe I will later.

[The Mad Monk]

I haven't felt this annoyed by an anime since AS aired Trinity Blood.

[Jon Miller]

My former roommate was super impressed with it and thought it was the best thing ever. It seemed sort of a wish fulfillment type thing though..

I have purposefully held off and not watched it for this reason.

I do know the ending though, and it saves it from being complete adolescent crap though.

JM

[The Mad Monk]

I will continue watching, as I did with Trinity Blood (bleh) and Eureka Seven (bizarre), because my curiosity makes me a glutton for punishment.

[DinoDoc]

Trinity Blood didn't annoy me til the ending.

[Jon Miller]

So no suggestions? (I am, of course, no limited to AS).

I am thinking of gunslinger girls or something also, but the fetish of girls shooting guns is already big enough in noir.

JM

[DaShi]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
DaShi, Dashi, Dashi. What have I done to you, to make you treat me so?

Sorry, I may have gone too far calling you a republican. You don't deserve that.

Two episodes is an admittedly short viewing time, but it has utterly failed to impress.

There is not one character who has earned my interest or sympathy.

Spoiler:

We have a bored honor student who blithely starts "killing all the bad people" so he can eventually be a god, a bored death god who drops the death note in the first place because he has nothing better to do, a subservient mother obviously living vicariously through his grades and little else, and a "secret investigator", presumably the hero of the piece, who show nearly as callous a disregard for human life as the student.

I don't think we are supposed to sympathize with him, at this point at least. Rather it's more of a look into the mind of a mad man. Someone who believes that his version of "justice" is the right one. Kind of like a certain president of a certain United States of America.

Spoiler:

The investigator is beyond belief. The act through which he shows his vaunted brilliance in the second episode rested on so many assumptions, not the least of which that his target would be watching live TV at the moment in the first place, that it's success amounts to a deus ex machina.

Not really, the whole thing was a test to confirm assumptions that he made. All the assumptions were based on the evidence he had. It's rather Sherlock Holmesian.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
I will continue watching, as I did with Trinity Blood (bleh) and Eureka Seven (bizarre), because my curiosity makes me a glutton for punishment.

I just couldn't get into Trinity Blood. I can say it annoyed me. It just didn't seem to grab me. E7 annoyed me in the beginning and I stopped watching it. However, I came back around the last third, where it was much better. Although I still hate those rotten kids.

[Wraith]

--" Does Death Note get any better as it goes on?"

If you don't like the start, then probably not. The battle of wits between L and Kira is pretty much how things continue. Their maneuvering just gets more baroque as time goes on.

--"I was wondering if there was anythnig else like Full Metal Panic. You know, a romantic action comedy."

Dime a dozen. Much of Rumiko Takahashi's work, for a start. At least the romantic action comedy part. Not sure about the like Full Metal Panic part, since I didn't like it enough to watch much.

--"BTW, Last Exile was or wasn't good?"

Pretty good mostly, but the ending rather falls apart. Not unusual for Gonzo.

--"Isn't Noir just about short skirts?"

It's a Bee Train Studios show, so it's about pretty and music. Plot and characters don't really enter in to their mix.

--"I am thinking of gunslinger girls or something also, but the fetish of girls shooting guns is already big enough in noir."

I gave up on Gunslinger Girls first time through on the second episode, when they did a huge recap of the first episode. I've heard enough about it since from people whose taste I trust that I'm going to be giving it another chance soon. It's supposed to be really good, and I admit I liked the first episode, it was just the recapping that got on my nerves. If they don't do it again (and I'm told they don't), then it should be a pretty good show, with well-developed characters. It has a lot more substance than Noir.

Quick update, but it looks like Lucky Star has possibly been licensed, but it isn't officially announced yet. It's the same company that's been releasing Haruhi here, so it's likely just another of their unusual announcement publicity stunts (in other words, really is licensed).

On the currently airing shows, I'm down to four. Kodomo no Jikan, Sketchbook ~full color'S~, Genshiken 2, and Dennou Coil. Especially the last; it's almost over and getting better and better. First show since Haibane Renmei that I was sure would get licensed but I'm buying the R2J DVDs anyway.

Oh, and second volume of Mechademia will be out soon.

Edit:
Make that five shows. Almost forgot Clannad. Although, if they don't show more Kotomi soon it will be four...

Wraith
"She can play 10/4 time half-heartedly?"
-- Competition judge ("Nodame Cantabile")

[The Mad Monk]

Dashi, calling that Sherlock Holmesian is an insult to all things Sherlock Holmesian. Among other things, Holmes absolutely refused to make logical leaps.

[The Mad Monk]

But, that's not why I returned to this thread.

This is. I found this on the site of Errant Story, a pretty damn good webcomic, and it touches on the Geneon withdrawal.

October 28th, 2007, 12:09 am
The Anime Industry... and Fansubs.
Well, since I now have a shiny newsbox I can post in, I'd like to take this opportunity to talk about a subject that never fails to incite, erm... some lively discussions.

In light of the recent announcement by Geneon, it's probably pretty clear to everyone by now that the anime industry in the U.S. is in some pretty deep doodle. And, though we may be loathe to admit it, we've known for ages just why anime companies have been losing lots and lots of money... or at least we know the biggest reason. Fansubs.

Now, for all that I have strong feelings about the immorality of illegally downloading other people's intellectual property (I stopped doing so years ago), and for all that I have friends whose livelihoods actually depend on the anime industry, I have to say that I don't actually feel that the problem here is the individual downloads. Rather, the problem as I see it is the fact that the majority of the American people who watch anime today clearly aren't, as a general rule, willing to pay to do so. Call me crazy, but it seems to me that when people who enjoy a product are almost universally unwilling to pay for said enjoyment, it indicates one of two things: either they don't care about whether or not they can continue to enjoy the product, OR the product as marketed does not satisfy their requirements for being worthy of purchase. In other words, either the product isn't "worth" their money, or they just don't care about it that much to begin with.

In this case, I think both ideas apply. No, I'm not saying that all the anime brought out in the US is bad... I'm just saying that anime companies cannot possibly compete with fansubs. Fansubs are, quite simply, a more appealing product because they make up for any quality issues by being almost instantly available. That is what the market, very clearly, cares about the most. Producing anime legally takes lots of time and lots of money and lots of people working full time to make it happen, while producing fansubs costs next to nothing and takes days instead of months. To make the competition even more one-sided, aside from the lack of dubbed voices and the occasional horrific translation error, there is no longer much appreciable difference in quality between a fansub and a legal copy of an anime (please note that I'm not saying the two are equal in quality, just that the differences in quality appear to be irrelevant to this market).

Of course, steps could be taken on the part of anime companies to reduce the amount of time between legal episode releases, and they could change the methods of episode by episode release, reduce prices, and so forth... but practically speaking, that would mean a huge change in distribution and licensing which they may not have the money to pursue, and even if they could, the anime companies would still be completely unable to compete on price. There's just no way anime companies can offer a comparable product to what fansubs offer, they've got too many hoops to jump through that fansub groups don't. This disparity in appeal, coupled with an overwhelming attitude of entitlement among anime viewers, is I think a large part of the drastically reduced sales that the anime industry has been facing, though of course they're not the only cause.

So, what does it all REALLY mean for the anime industry, not just stateside, but globally? Sales are plummeting, while operating and production costs are escalating. One U.S. distribution company has already effectively shut down. I'm sure others are having some severe cutbacks. If the lack of sales keeps up, where are these companies even going to get the money to license more shows? The stateside companies are hitting a major money crunch, and it's only getting worse the longer they try to operate without some huge, expensive, brilliant change in direction.

In addition to that, the companies overseas that are actually licensing manga and then making the anime shows in the first place are facing their own money crunches. Producing anime is expensive, pure and simple, and today's audiences (American and otherwise) demand a lot more quality than we did back in the days of watching Lupin III on VHS from the guy who knew a guy who had a friend in Japan. Many shows in Japan are now produced being dependent from the start upon American licensing money, because we're the only source they have for the money to finish making the show to the quality we all demand. (This isn't just the case for anime, btw, this is also the case for a lot of great British television, too).

So then, what happens if the American companies go under because we obviously won't pay them for our entertainment? Simple... most of the overseas companies will follow suit. Animation quality will suffer. Anime variety will suffer. We'll be left with a handful of companies producing a handful of works of inferior quality for the handful of people still willing to pay for them... in other words, we'll be right back where we were twenty years ago, before the American market really existed. Only this time, there won't be an explosion of popularity on the horizon, instead there'll be a slow sublimation to the next big thing with a feasible marketing practice, because anime will have had its chance... and blown it. Who would invest in bringing back anime once it's been proven that it doesn't sell? The anime market has clearly spoken, and we just don't care enough anymore to actually buy the products.

Of course, illegal or not, there's also really nothing anyone can do to STOP people from downloading anime. There'll always be a way to do it, illegal copies will always be available, and right or wrong that'll always be each person's choice to make. But again, the issue has never really been that people download anime, it's that people DON'T BUY anime. The problem here is not a question of downloading being right or wrong. It's just an issue of reality, and the simple truth that you can't get something for nothing. Just because people can get anime for free right now doesn't mean it can exist for free, and the money to make it has to come from somewhere. The fans are the only ones left who can provide the money to keep the anime system running. What does it say about a medium if even the people who love it won't buy in?

For me, this issue goes beyond an at this point fairly minor interest in anime. Whenever I look at the anime industry failing because too few fans love their shows enough to pay for them, I feel terrified that the same thing could happen to us someday. It's a sort of sick fear that eventually we won't be good enough, and no one will care anymore, and we'll waste away trying to keep going until there's just nothing left to run on. If large anime companies can have to shut down because no one cares, how easily could the same thing happen to insignificant little us?

That fear makes me all the more grateful every time I get to meet one of you, every time I get to see you enjoying yourselves on the forums, even every time I read an e-mail, or sort through envelopes for bookmarks. We are just so incredibly lucky to have you as our readers, because you guys... actually care. You have proven time and again that you really do value us and the comic. You've made the effort to understand exactly what it costs us in terms of time, energy, health, and security to do this for our living, and you've stepped up whenever we needed it and put your money on the table just so that we CAN keep doing this for you. Even though we're still learning, still figuring out how this whole webcomics as a business thing is supposed to work, you've stood by supporting us, encouraging us, and even forgiving us when we've made mistakes. That kind of partnership, understanding, and trust... it's truly precious. It is, without question, what makes this job worth having.

So... thank you for believing in us, and thank you for supporting us. If only the anime industry had fans half so great as you!

http://www.errantstory.com/index.php

I was wondering what you all thought about it, especially in light of all the closings and pullouts.

[Q Classic]

I think he's got a point. To be honest, there are some issues, I feel, with the way anime's released in the US.

1. Very long times to release. This is where the fansubs become useful/end up dominating--which is a problem. Once people have seen it, unless the absolutely adore the series, they probably won't go to purchase it; even then, there has to be some reason for them to own it on a format that isn't still sitting on their computer. Many of the fansub groups recognize that they can hurt the distribution companies, which is why they'll usually cease to work on it if it's been licensed, which is helpful. However, I think that if these companies actually did go forward and try the MPAA/RIAA tactics of sending nastygrams and suing, they'd kill their fanbase faster than **** through a goose.

2. Translation choices. Dubbing is one of the issues, honestly. Some pull it off really well, but others sound really bad; for instance, I've never understood why they tend to turn the Kansai dialect into the Southern one. Subbing's an issue too, as they sometimes try to replace idioms with other idioms, and they don't always make sense. Particularly egregious is the tendency of some to make edits and censoring, which often incenses the most devoted fans--in other words, they butcher episodes to make them purchasable and play well in Peoria, except Peorians don't give a ****--and they've just lost the customer that they would have originally had. (Not unlike McCain alienating his independent and moderate base by trying to garner support amongst the True Faithful.)

3. High prices. I really like some of these shows; I do try to purchase them, but often times, I can't purchase them all at once, which means I'll buy one DVD of a series, only to come back some months later to pick up another one--which is why I have several incomplete series in my library. There's no reason, in my opinion, for them to divide series into 6 DVDs, each one only having 4 episodes; it inflates costs for the buyer. What's worse is when they do that to shorter shows, like 4 DVDs for a 13-episode series. When whole seasons of American shows can be had for $30-$50, a lot of the newer and more popular anime can go for more than twice that. I realize there's quite a bit of overhead for licensing and translation, amongst other things, but if they're losing money, you'd think that there's a small issue with that price point...

4. Niche market, supply glut. Anime, for as much buzz as it gets, are like MMOs. The audience that would actually regularly purchase and enjoy it is fairly small, but there's a massive distortion effect arising from both geek chic (which is trampling on actual geekdom) poseurs, and a breathless media prone to overstating the case (which proclaims it's a massive, enormously burgeoning movement, making Himalayas out of anthills). Additionally, there's limited awareness (lots of anime review sites, but none that seem to have become truly definitive); thus, recommendations seem to be done by word of mouth, which doesn't have as great scale vs. time frame as marketing wonks would like suggest.


(edited. i don't know why my english/typing skills are so sucky today.)

[Jon Miller]

That's the reason why I occasionally just go out and buy an anime that I think I like but haven't seen before. I don't buy everything I watch that isn't anime, nor do I for what is anime. But I do buy some stuff to support it.

JM

[Seeker]

....wait...there's companies that legally import Anime??

What about making American original content? Or would that be ignored by an 'Anime is Japanese' bias.

I think anime is becoming more international, at least in east asia. There is Korean anime, and one day soon there will be Chinese anime, and maybe one day even Vietnamese anime.

Can an American company ever capture the 'Japanese style' that everyone seems to love without making it all goofy and kiddy or weird and Fritz the Catty?