israeli aggressors building more housing in East Jerusalem

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by dannubis
Don't let the terrorists know that. They might just file the paperwork and become freedom fighters...

i don't get the retort

[Sirotnikov]

I have never seen a justification for Israel that didn't rely on outright lies, conflating legality with morality, or associating people who asked with Hitler or the Nazis.

You obviously haven't searched hard enough.

[Arrian]

Even if one agrees that the creation of Israel (either at all, or simply how/where it was actually created) was a mistake, the only way that will be undone is by massive violence (in comparison to the relatively low-level violence between the Israelis and Palestinians over the last few decades). While Agathon appears to find this prospect quite appealing, I cannot imagine it will be anything but disasterous for all concerned. If faced with a truely existential threat, Israel will fight for its life (understandably so, even if you think Israel should never have been).

If one actually gives a damn about the people involved, one can only hope for some sort of morally messy (by necessity) compromise.

-Arrian

[Kuciwalker]

Also Israel has nukes.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Also Israel has nukes.

[Shrapnel12]

Agathon's whole political philosophy is built around violence so the more violent your group, the more he likes you, unless your being violent against him or a group he likes.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
While I certainly agree that there are Israeli soliers who get a power-rush out of treating palestinians bad, and some even like to abuse them, I would certainly not call this terrorism, as it is not representative of Israeli intentions.

I was refering to what Israeli civilians do and what the Israeli govt doesn't do to prevent them from doing it. I specifically refered to the clips that slaughtermeyer posted.

And what is this about Israeli intentions? You can't just call your own intentions, whatever they are, Israeli intentions. We can judge for ourselves what Israeli intentions are.

And with regards to the official Israeli tactics, I think that all of them are legitimate for the situation. I have no problem with using assassinations, border checks, covert arrests etc.

I do feel really bad about the economic pressure on Gaza, because I see people there suffering. But I think it is legitimate because I know that any money that gets there is spent on paying sallaries to Hamas combatants.

Then you cause terrorism. Don't deny it. You know you do. There's two huge causes of terrorism that you want to simply ignore; terrorism itself and ethnic cleansing.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Arrian
Actually, IIRC the distinction drawn was more subtle than that, Kid. The other poster (shrapnel) said that the Palestinians (Hamas, et al) intentionally target civilians as their primary strategy. That's not the same as arguing that the Pals kill civilians but Israelis don't. In fact, his post specifically notes that Israel has killed plenty of Palestinian civilians.

Now, having gotten the other poster's claim right, you can argue about whether or not:

I know what he said. They are both terrorists. There's no distinction between the two. The only difference is that one has more power than the other one.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Shrapnel12
Agathon's whole political philosophy is built around violence so the more violent your group, the more he likes you, unless your being violent against him or a group he likes.

You're making a fool of yourself. Stop saying such stupid things.

[Sirotnikov]

I was refering to what Israeli civilians do and what the Israeli govt doesn't do to prevent them from doing it. I specifically refered to the clips that slaughtermeyer posted.

I did not watch slaughtermeyer's clips.
if you refer to violent actions by fanatic settlers, then I dislike it as well.

However the government has found it politically and logistically difficult to combat them. The army can not arrest Israeli citizens the same way he can arrest Palestinians, and the police is crappy, and takes years to show up.

And no, you can't compare it to Hamas, becuase what ever terrorist Jewish organizations there were, Israel successfully disrupted them.

And what is this about Israeli intentions? You can't just call your own intentions, whatever they are, Israeli intentions. We can judge for ourselves what Israeli intentions are.

That's a very dumb proposition.
I know the Israeli intentions because I represent the voting Israeli public. I am also, currently subordinate to the Israeli executive office (since I serve in the IDF).

So I am several times more qualified than you, at stating my opinion of what Israel's targets are.

Then you cause terrorism. Don't deny it. You know you do. There's two huge causes of terrorism that you want to simply ignore; terrorism itself and ethnic cleansing.

I don't agree.

as far as I know, research shows that the poor situation in Gaza has moved a large part of the Gaza public away from supporting terrorism. The criticism on rocket launching is so high that even some Hamas members began criticising the "undirected" and "harmful" daily launching of rockets.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
I did not watch slaughtermeyer's clips.

if you refer to violent actions by fanatic settlers, then I dislike it as well.

However the government has found it politically and logistically difficult to combat them. The army can not arrest Israeli citizens the same way he can arrest Palestinians, and the police is crappy, and takes years to show up.

The soldiers or police is protecting the settlers while they stone people. If you don't agree with that then stop supporting it. Stop saying that Israeli's aren't causing the terrorism. Stop saying that Israeli's aren't terrorists.

You're saying Isreal sucks but is good at the same time.

And no, you can't compare it to Hamas, becuase what ever terrorist Jewish organizations there were, Israel successfully disrupted them.

I'm not talking about terrorist organizations. I'm talking about all of your people, what you are doing to the Palestinians.

Look, my people did it too. We did it to the Indians and the Mexicans. We did something like it to black people. I don't say that only some fanatics did it. My people did it. That's why I don't salute the flag. I seperate myself from it. I don't try to pretend that those people aren't Americans, and America is just wonderfull.

That's a very dumb proposition.
I know the Israeli intentions because I represent the voting Israeli public. I am also, currently subordinate to the Israeli executive office (since I serve in the IDF).

BS. You intend to do exactly what you are doing. How is what you are doing not your intentions?

So I am several times more qualified than you, at stating my opinion of what Israel's targets are.

I don't care about the targets. I'm talking about what your people are doing to another people. You intend to do that. Don't deny it.

[Sirotnikov]

The soldiers or police is protecting the settlers while they stone people. If you don't agree with that then stop supporting it. Stop saying that Israeli's aren't causing the terrorism. Stop saying that Israeli's aren't terrorists.

You're saying Isreal sucks but is good at the same time.

If you're willing to say that Israel sucks based on the actions of a minority (a large minority, but a minority still) then you're a goof.

I refuse to call violent acts some settlers to terrorism. Sure there are plenty of cases of brutish aggression, and harassment. But comparing it to intentionally targeting innocent Israelis in Tel Aviv is absurd.

Claiming that the behavior of the more radical settlers represents official Israeli doctrine is stupid, and uneducated.

Israel has troubles dealing with settlers perpetrating violent actions that don't amount to stuff which Shabak can get involved over.

The Israeli police is crap. IDF has no authority over Israeli citizens, and many local commanders choose to be lenient because they have to continue to deal with the local community leaders for their entire term.

The IDF often finds it very hard to stop radical settlers from barging into closed military zones and forming new ad-hoc settlement points. Every week there are a dozen new such things created, and every week they are destroyed by IDF. And every week the settlers go on back.

If you think that I'm unaware of the growing amount of violence, abuse and snide at things like decensy or Israeli law by groups of settlers - then you're wrong.

And I do what I can, politically to stop it. I vote and weigh in arguments as much as I can, for people who I think will improve the situation.


However, all of the hatred crimes perpetrated by individuals, be they settlers or army types, do not amount to stuff that can be compared with huge groups of people who dedicate their lives to thinking up ways to kill more innocent folks on Israeli streets.

And the reality of the matter is, that the chicken and the egg are not as clear cut as you'd want to present it.

Because the reason for terrorism is not just the woes of occupation.

It has many complex reasons.

Terrorism gained prominence not as a tool to protest the woes of occupation but in order to change political reality, and change Israeli borders.

Hamas and Hezbullah believe that terrorism is a good longterm strategy to dissuade jews from staying in Israel, and will eventually lead to the dispersal of Jews and disbandment of Israel.

Terrorism is often a good way of solving local political disputes between rival factions, or getting political support.

Terrorism is also a good way to get noticed by PA authorities, because it shows you need to be dealt with, and it helps you gain money and influence.


Most Palestinian terrorism has long ago stopped being a grass roots movement and became almost a profession. Many people dislike the terrorists and think they make the situation worse. Lots of terrorists have nothing else to do, and don't know jack except for waving guns. Many of the terrorists are also petty criminals and gangsters.

So there's much more to the reasons for anti-Israeli terrorism than the woes of occupation.

And if occupation (or just its bad effects) suddenly stopped, then terrorism would not suddenly disappear.

I'm talking about what your people are doing to another people. You intend to do that. Don't deny it.

So let's be clear on what are my people are doing to another people.

First, they are not ethnically cleansing them, nor are they killing them by the droves.


The Israeli goal, which I do not deny, is to solve the Palestinian political aspirations while making sure we can leave as much land as we can in Israeli hands.

The grand scale strategy is to:

a) continue occupy settled territories until there is some sort of settlement reached, or a concesus to withdraw
b) Diminish the effects of the palestinian terrorist groups on Israel
c) secure the lives of those that live in the occupied territories in the mean time.

Oslo was an honest attempt to "do something" with said territories. It failed due to a bunch of reasons - a good part of them, is that Israel and the Palestinians had a different view of what the final settlement is. Many say that Arafat was unwilling to sign away the palestinian claim for the rest of Israel (that is not the territories). I think so to, but I don't want to argue about it, so let's call it a difference of opinions.

So anyway, that failed, and the Palestinians created another uprising, which the PA leadership promoted, hoping to gain further political leverage in negociations. It spun out of control.

The IDF returned to old positions, and created a huge pressure clamp to stop the violence from dripping into Israel proper.

The PA kept thinking that it was using the Hamas as a tool against Israel, but eventually Hamas had grown much more powerful than Fatah as a result.

Currently the situation is the following:

The political echelon is trying to contain the palestinian uprising, while seeking for a way out in several ways:
a) preparing Israeli public opinion for some sort of land compromise, or a one-sided pullout.
b) trying to come to better terms with the palestinian leadership about a formula to end the conflict
c) trying to assess if the current palestinian leadership can deliver, if any agreement is signed.

The settlers are trying to prolong the status quo, and change facts on the ground:
a) try and set up more settlements, hoping that more of them stay
b) try and prove that a settlement can't be reached with current palestinian leadership
c) try and sway Israeli public opinion against giving away land
d) try and harass local palestinians hoping they would 'go away' (and many do).


To say that there is a huge Israeli conspiracy to cleanse the palestinian population is awfully incorrect and unfactual.

Currently it is a hot potateo, that causes terrorism and domestic political turmoil (radical right / radical left). Any government in Israel would love for a palestinian state to form already and to disengage completely.

However this does not mean that Israel intends to totally forget what it view as a legitimate historical, religious and political claim for alot of the disputed areas, such as Jerusalem or different settlements.

Nor can Israel disengage with total disregard to the potential risk coming from the already existing palestinian terrorist groups.

BS. You intend to do exactly what you are doing. How is what you are doing not your intentions?

I hope you smarten up one day, and stop viewing complex countries as one big evil beast.

there are many conflict interests regarding the territories, all of which have effect on the already troubled Israeli political system, which makes this conflict hard to solve.

to claim that Israel has an evil master plan is a joke.
The whole source of the problem is that no one in charge has any plan, so things are basically controlled by individuals (often extremists) who do bad things, creating evermore troubles and turmoil.


Regarding what Israel is doing with Gaza:

Israel pulled out of Gaza, and Gaza has collapsed on itself.
Gaza is currently a HUGE terrorist threat.

Israel is doing its best to contain that, and is doing what it can to avoid the need for a large costly intrusion. The barriers on borders and money transfer are there because anything that goes in is immediately used to bolster terrorist capabilities by the local Hamas government.

The terrorist factions do not want the conflict solved and continue a barrage of missiles (on Israeli territory), and attempts to harm Israeli soldiers on (1967) Gaza borders.

It should not come to them as a surprise if Israel gets sick of it, and comes down on Gaza really hard, any time in the near several months.

[lord of the mark]

Are you guys still going over history, with the usual yadda yadda.

I think its kewl Abbas is going to be visiting Olmert in his sukkah tomorrow. Happy Shemini Atzeret, everyone!

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

I hope you smarten up one day, and stop viewing complex countries as one big evil beast.

there are many conflict interests regarding the territories, all of which have effect on the already troubled Israeli political system, which makes this conflict hard to solve.

to claim that Israel has an evil master plan is a joke.
The whole source of the problem is that no one in charge has any plan, so things are basically controlled by individuals (often extremists) who do bad things, creating evermore troubles and turmoil.

I'm not going over everything that you pointed out, altough I did read it all. It's not complex like you say. It's very simple.

There was no conspiracy in the US. There isn't one now either. There was no evil master plan. There isn't one now. There are some people in the US, however, who are very bad, and there are a lot of other people who are a little bad and who are very deluded and messed up by the way they are brought up to believe. That makes for a country that does some very bad things to other people. That doesn't say anything about individual Americans, only as the country as a whole.

Your country, I'm sorry, looks just like the USA if not worse.

You have a choice. Wave your flag or speak out against it. It's that simple. Not complicated.

[Barnabas]

So Siro, settlers are like stupid lemmings?