Tweet
Japan 
-
THEY!!111 OMG WTF LOL LET DA NOMADS AND TEH S3D3NTARY PEOPLA BOTH MAEK BITER AXP3REINCES
AND TEH GRAAT SINS OF THERE [DOCTRINAL] INOVATIONS BQU3ATH3D SMAL
AND!!1!11!!! LOL JUST IN CAES A DISPUTANT CALS U 2 DISPUT3 ABOUT THEYRE CLAMES
DO NOT THAN DISPUT3 ON THEM 3XCAPT BY WAY OF AN 3XTARNAL DISPUTA!!!!11!! WTF -
One could offer NATO membership CONDITIONAL on acheiving internationally recognized boundaries. IIRC, something similar was offered to the Hungarians and Romanians, and expedited their resolution of outstanding issues.
That would be a powerful incentive to an Israeli-Pal agreement, and would add to the arguments the "peace camp" in Israel can use internally.
Whether thats what Giuliani has in mind, i dont know. BUt if he wants to walk back, that would be a very reasonable position to walk back to.
That's not a bad idea, but I see no reason to believe that's what Giuliani had in mind. Generally speaking, what the Republican candidates are saying about foreign policy are bat**** crazy."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
-
I can see Obama isn't the only one making crazy suggestions.
Really if they wanted NATO to be the anti-terror alliance, you should try to get the Russians to join. At least that way they wouldn't instinctively oppose everything it does, plus they have their own problems with Islamists."The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists."
-Joan RobinsonComment
-
I should add that on the topic of Israel, everyone says crazy things. Clinton just came out with an Israel platform saying that an undivided Jerusalem should be an "unquestioned" basis for American policy."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
-
Hmm... so what would it take to get Bloomberg to run then?"The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists."
-Joan RobinsonComment
-
I say the Eurasian continent touches the North Atlantic.DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.Comment
-
But the Indian continent doesn't.THEY!!111 OMG WTF LOL LET DA NOMADS AND TEH S3D3NTARY PEOPLA BOTH MAEK BITER AXP3REINCES
AND TEH GRAAT SINS OF THERE [DOCTRINAL] INOVATIONS BQU3ATH3D SMAL
AND!!1!11!!! LOL JUST IN CAES A DISPUTANT CALS U 2 DISPUT3 ABOUT THEYRE CLAMES
DO NOT THAN DISPUT3 ON THEM 3XCAPT BY WAY OF AN 3XTARNAL DISPUTA!!!!11!! WTFComment
-
not exactlyOriginally posted by Ramo
I should add that on the topic of Israel, everyone says crazy things. Clinton just came out with an Israel platform saying that an undivided Jerusalem should be an "unquestioned" basis for American policy.
"believes that Israel’s right to exist in safety as a Jewish state, with defensible borders and an undivided Jerusalem as its capital, secure from violence and terrorism, must never be questioned." "
Most Israelis know that right now Jerusalem is de facto divided anyway. They may have a "right" to a united Jerusalem, but sometimes one must concede even things one has a right to, for a higher goal. I think her statement means that the admin wont propose a Jer solution based on division as a matter of policy (though Israeli moderates used to say that taking an Arab village a couple of miles east of the center of the city, and calling it "East Jerusalem, capital of Palestine" would be consistent with a "united Jerusalem" With sufficient will power, any Arab neighborhood outside the walls of the old city could be considered not part of the Jerusalem that has to remain eternally united) It doesnt mean that when Abbas and Olmert ( or Barak, or Livni) sit down and hammer out terms, that a US participant cant suggest plans for the old City that go beyond that, and that are similar to the Geneva accords solution.
You can call that a stretch if you like. I say its just as much something "everyone understands" as Obamas walkback from high tea with Ahmadinajad."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
-
An undivided Jerusalem actually means a divided Jerusalem because everyone understands that Jerusalem has to be divided? WTF? Are you serious?
Edit:
It might be ok for an Israeli pol to be saying this, but why should a potential American President be articulating the Israeli negotiating position? She went as far as saying that this right should never be questioned.
As a practical matter, it's unlikely that she actually believes this nonsense, but you're dreaming if you think this sort of talk doesn't undercut Abbas.Last edited by Ramo; September 20, 2007, 13:05."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
-
I think it gets closer and closer to reality the more Giuliani opens his mouth.Originally posted by Victor Galis
Hmm... so what would it take to get Bloomberg to run then?“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)Comment
-
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Ramo
An undivided Jerusalem actually means a divided Jerusalem because everyone understands that Jerusalem has to be divided? WTF? Are you serious?
Much time has been spent reconciling the notion of an undivided Jerusalem with Pal needs in Jerusalem. Some of it is very subtle. You evidently are not familiar with the Jerusalem solution industry. I suspect Hillary is. I KNOW her foreign policy advisors are.
And she said that this right should never be questioned.
Was supposed to say " I believe in Israel as a Jewish state with secure and defensible borders, with an undivided Jerusalem as its capital, and this should be unquestioned, except for the part about Jerusalem, whose status as its capital should not be questioned, but the exact details of the solution should be left for negotiations" - or more elegant words to that effect?
That would hurt her politically, would hurt the Israeli peace camp politically, and would, I think, do little for Abbas.
AFAICT right now Abbas is more concerned with what comes out of the November conference, whether its even worth holding it till theres more buyin from Arab states (and possible a stronger Israeli PM) and the issues of checkpoints and prisoners, than with Hillary's statements.
BTW, you do understand that discussions of Israeli concessions prior to peace talks undercuts Kadima and Labour, and helps Likud?"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
-
No, I said because its already de facto divided. Its part of a discussion about what a united Jerusalem really means. If you cant walk freely and safely from across the entire city, how much is keeping formal soveriegnty over Sheik Jarrah really worth? I guess thats more of an internal discussion, and I shouldnt have raised it here.Originally posted by Ramo
An undivided Jerusalem actually means a divided Jerusalem because everyone understands that Jerusalem has to be divided?
But yes, I think if Hillary makes a statement that sounds as if its to the right of the real red lines of anyone in Israel other than Likud, and we are aware of the Clintons historic closeness to Labor, and their good relations with Kadima and the current Labor leadership (Clinton and Barak, yup, back to the 90s) it makes sense to interpret it in that light.
Its saying the US should back the opening Israeli position on that issue, its not closing off anything in negotiations between the parties."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
-
The arabs already view Israel as being a colony of Europe. Giulinani's proposal will enforce that misperception and will bring added support to those who want to wipe Israel from the map.
Terrific move, Rudy.
Comment
-
Bloomberg
THEY!!111 OMG WTF LOL LET DA NOMADS AND TEH S3D3NTARY PEOPLA BOTH MAEK BITER AXP3REINCES
AND TEH GRAAT SINS OF THERE [DOCTRINAL] INOVATIONS BQU3ATH3D SMAL
AND!!1!11!!! LOL JUST IN CAES A DISPUTANT CALS U 2 DISPUT3 ABOUT THEYRE CLAMES
DO NOT THAN DISPUT3 ON THEM 3XCAPT BY WAY OF AN 3XTARNAL DISPUTA!!!!11!! WTFComment
-
No, I said because its already de facto divided.
Not in terms of sovereignty. And there are still areas not under Pal jurisdiction that are going to be contested.
Its part of a discussion about what a united Jerusalem really means.
Even if she really meant to express exactly the opposite of what a literal reading of her words would imply, and instead used some bizarre phrasing by certain Israeli politicos (BTW, which ones use that phrasing? I don't suppose you could dig up a quote from Barak to that effect?), why should she assume that everyone else would use that bizarre interpretation? Does the Israeli right (you know, the guys who want to annex East Jerusalem) consider an "undivided Jerusalem" to specifically exclude East Jerusalem and parts of the Old City? More importantly, again, how do you think Pals interpret "undivided Jerusalem"?
BTW, you do understand that discussions of Israeli concessions prior to peace talks undercuts Kadima and Labour, and helps Likud?
I don't see why. I must've missed the part where Olmert deputized Clinton as an official Israeli negotiator. As I wrote earlier, I don't see why an American Presidential candidate should be articulating the Israeli negotiating position. What ever happened to the idea of the US being an honest broker?
And shouldn't it be exactly the opposite? Shouldn't the American Presidential frontrunner supporting the Israeli negotiating position help the Israeli right?"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
Comment