If Life Was Perfect

[Vesayen]

In response to the OP, i've thought about this a lot too.

The principle component of "me", is my mind, my memories and my thought processes. If any of those things are fundamentally changed, I am no longer "me", "I" don't exist, something else does.

My entire existence, everyones existance has been a strive for prosperity in a world of limited resources. Putting me into a place where there is no struggle of any form would be the death of my consciousness, what would be the point? It would be such a fundamental change to my thought processes that I would cease to be me.

This gives me a serious problem with the afterlife of some of the world’s major religions. Being sent to a place to experience “endless joy and pleasure” sounds identical to me as the “experience machine” from so many thought experiment questions, it sounds identical to being permanently on a mind altering drug.

Assume we had a drug you could inject which would alter your mental states to be nothing but endless joy. Or assume you had a machine you could be hooked upto ala the matrix, where you would not know it was fake, and you experienced nothing but pleasure-would you want that?

Compare that to christian or muslim heaven. I don’t see much of a difference, do you? It is an altered state of mind, an alteration so severe that really it has nothing in common with the original. Your consciousness ceases to be you, it becomes something else.

The idea of my death resulting in me being a permanent coke fiend is more terrifying to me then there not being any afterlife at all. The idea of my consciousness being “transformed” into something else terrifies me, while in contrast, non existence is not desirable, but it does not scare me on an emotional level.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Darius871
After all this you're still not getting the crucial distinction between material suffering and emotional suffering. Of course I "see value in the end of suffering," but the point of contention was whether ending material suffering would necessarily end emotional suffering. I highly doubt it.

"We are about as happy as we want to be"

If you can't be happy in a world without war and poverty then you don't want to be happy.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Vesayen
In response to the OP, i've thought about this a lot too.

The principle component of "me", is my mind, my memories and my thought processes. If any of those things are fundamentally changed, I am no longer "me", "I" don't exist, something else does.

My entire existence, everyones existance has been a strive for prosperity in a world of limited resources. Putting me into a place where there is no struggle of any form would be the death of my consciousness, what would be the point? It would be such a fundamental change to my thought processes that I would cease to be me.

Consciousness? Do you mean conscience? Anyway, it's not the death of either. It's a drastic transformation. Maybe you can compare it to puberty. But when you went through puberty you were still you, just very different. Why do you attach your identity to your suffering so much? Change is ok, suffereing is bad.

[Japher]

I, for once, agree with Kid

[Arrian]

Aeson

Spot on.

-Arrian

[Shrapnel12]

I just don't buy this idea that we have to suffer to enjoy life or that reality no matter how dismal is better then any fantasy. Whether it be the Twilight Zone, Vanilla Sky, or The Matrix, I'd choose those ideal "fake" lives over their realities any day.

[Lorizael]

Okay Cypher.

[Patroklos]

If you ever lived a life full of suffering where you didn't have much chance of stopping your suffering you wouldn't like that.

If you meet anyone like that, let me know.

[Patroklos]

I just don't buy this idea that we have to suffer to enjoy life or that reality no matter how dismal is better then any fantasy. Whether it be the Twilight Zone, Vanilla Sky, or The Matrix, I'd choose those ideal "fake" lives over their realities any day.

The point of all of those things is that the initially percieved perfection was in fact not that at all. None of them said you need to suffer perse, but what good is the attention of a woman (year after year) without love? What good is winning without victory?

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Kidicious

Consciousness? Do you mean conscience? Anyway, it's not the death of either. It's a drastic transformation. Maybe you can compare it to puberty. But when you went through puberty you were still you, just very different. Why do you attach your identity to your suffering so much? Change is ok, suffereing is bad.

No, I said consciousness, I meant consciousness. What makes me, me. My self awareness and my self. Going through puberty was not so great a change as to fundamentally change who I am. It was an alteration, but not a fundamental one.

Going to a place with infinite resources where I am filled with eternal bliss, is a fundamental change, so much so, I cease to be me.

The change from puberty is not so great as a change to a place where there is no challenge.

Others said “suffering”, I never said suffering did I? Our identities are formed in part by the circumstances of our environment. Scarcity is a major part of our world. Our bodies only have so much time to live, our surroundings only have so many resources which others want also etc. Change is a result of scarcity. A Christian afterlife of endless joy would necessarily not have change.

We don’t need to “suffer”, but we all live in a world of scarcity and this scarcity shaped our psyche, if you put us into a world without scarcity, our consciousness is fundamentally changed.

I don’t want endless joy. I want a world of scarcity like the one my mind was formed in. To put me elsewhere would be similar to killing my soul.

Scarcity or what some of you are calling suffering does not just exist in the third world. Yes, in some poor, polluted third world hellhole there is a lot more scarcity. Even in the richest part of America there is scarcity, resources and time are not endless and even Americas ultra rich have to work to maintain their status. A future utopia has the same issue, work is needed to maintain even the best states men can achieve.

[Shrapnel12]

Originally posted by Patroklos


...but what good is the attention of a woman (year after year) without love?

No offense Pat, but I don't think you're doing it right then.

[LordShiva]

If you were swimming in money and could afford the hottest, cleanest prostitutes, would you just have sex with them whenever you wanted, or would you still want to go out to clubs/bars/wherever and work for your women?

[Arrian]

If you wanted someone who actually loved you, as opposed to a prostitute, yeah.

-Arrian

[LordShiva]

Definitely. Even if you weren't looking for long-term love, I'd think one would prefer teh latter option as well.

[Patroklos]

No offense Pat, but I don't think you're doing it right then.

"show me a beautiful woman, and I'll show you a guy tired of ****ing her."

The same great ass, even for eternity, gets old if there is nothing else there.