The General Petraeus Report (stream link & discussion)

[East Street Trader]

Reconciliation - that is for the disparate elements in Iraq (the 150 tribes, the Sunnis, the Shi'ite and the Kurds) to look for the things which bring them together rather than to focus on the things that drive them apart - would unquestionably be a good thing.

But it would no more quickly create a functional government than holding an election, writing a constitution or passing key legislation.

At best it would allow the struggle for power to take place in a slightly more contained way.

There just is no magic wand which can allow 20 million people who have not previously managed to come together as a nation state suddenly to do so.

What those currently struggling for power in Iraq understand is that the only thing which will allow a functional government to be established is force.

[Patroklos]

Nice article Ramo, or at least it would have been if the two most qualified people on the subject hadn't just contridicted, rendered false or properly put into context most of it.

Again, why are you posting an article from people without the facts published before the people with the facts told you how things are?

Let's recap. Sectarian violence is roughly at the same level as it was when the surge started. Violence in Baghdad is down somewhat (still not down to the pre-al Askariya Mosque bombing levels), but that's largely a function of the successful ethnic cleansing of Sunni Arabs within the city (going from 65% Sunni to 75% Shia). The "progress on the ground" that war supporters herald comes directly at the cost of sectarian reconciliation with us arming thugs (terrorist thugs, even) like the 1920 Revolution Brigade who are totally at odds with the central government, and are able to torture and kill anyone they accuse of being part of AQI. In the South around Basra, you've got a mafia-style rule split between the Mahdi Army, the Badr Brigade, and Fadhila. The security forces are dominated by sectarian militias. And there's still absolutely no progress as far as political reforms that could set the stage for national reconciliation; and with Sunni parties (including the National Accord Front) taking absolutely no part in the Maliki gov't, there's little hope of it happening.

On the one side Ramo.

On the other Petraeus, Croker, and in most cases the GAO and Jones (whose data is mostly the same, they just come to different conclusions).

Decisions, decisions...

[Ramo]

What the hell are you talking about? McClatchy's data are similar to everyone else's.

[Ramo]

Again, why are you posting an article from people without the facts published before the people with the facts told you how things are?

Yes, Petraeus was the only person in the entire world who had "the facts" on 9/9. Do you realize how dumb that sounds?

[Patroklos]

Responsibility for security in most of Iraq would be turned over to Iraqi security forces by November... With less than a week to go before the White House delivers a congressionally mandated report on that plan, none of this has happened.

Odd, Petraeus had a different thought on that. Is it November yet anyway?

The White House assessment, which must be delivered by Sept. 15, is expected to hail security gains and hold out hope for improvement — if U.S. troops are given more time.

Which of course we know know is not the case at all, the WH had nothing to do with what we heard yesterday. Oh the hackery...

Nice to know any assessment that didn't include breaking seals to Armageddon was obviously expected so now assumed false. I am glad people actually cared what the General had to say.

statistics on violence gathered independently by McClatchy Newspapers

Not the same data. I am sure a newspaper with a dozen odd people on the ground amongst 20 million has better data than an organization with 180,000+ data collectors on the ground.

Well, since there is 6 hours of congressional testimony that deals with everything mentioned in that article I don't feel the need to do it myself.

[Agathon]

I thought this was funny and appropriate

[Patroklos]

Ah, 1984 quotes and completely irrelevant picture posts, is their any more sure signal of internet victory a fallen opponent can give you?

[Ramo]

Odd, Petraeus had a different thought on that. Is it November yet anyway?

I haven't seen the testimony yet. What exactly did he say?

Which of course we know know is not the case at all, the WH had nothing to do with what we heard yesterday. Oh the hackery...

There's going to be an assessment written by the WH released soon recommending a future course of action. Hence, White House assessment Oh, the ignorance.

Not the same data. I am sure a newspaper with a dozen odd people on the ground amongst 20 million has better data than an organization with 180,000+ data collectors on the ground.

But by some miracle this network of newspapers got similar data as the AP, the GAO, Jones, and Petraeus. Through some black unamerican arts, no doubt...

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Ah, 1984 quotes and completely irrelevant picture posts, is their any more sure signal of internet victory a fallen opponent can give you?

You're owned on this topic. You've been owned for years on this topic. You have had absolutely no even remotely rational defence at your disposal for ages. Yet you guys keep jibber-jabbering and jumping up and down like you still have some credibility, when all the signs are saying "cluster ****" in 200 foot high flashing neon letters. It was the same with Vietnam. You got your ass handed to you, and then let even more people die because you simply didn't have the common decency to admit that you'd been whupped.

As in the case of the flat earth theory, the time for respectful disagreement is long over. Nothing less than 24/7 scorn and mockery of the right wing loons who still support this ridiculous fiasco is appropriate now. I watched most of the Petraeus testimony, and it was more or less a chimps' tea party.

You see those people over there, hooting and laughing at you and your kind. They're called the "rational people", and they knew a long time ago that this whole affair was idiotic, immoral and ill-conceived.

Pink Floyd had a really good idea about 20 years ago: a private hospital for militarist lunatics. An idea whose time has surely come, I should think.

And all this on the same day that another scientific study proves that conservatives' brains don't work properly.

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-politics10sep10,1,5376455.story?ctrack=3&cset=true

[Patroklos]

I haven't seen the testimony yet. What exactly did he say?

I can't find any transcripts as of yet, and it was so long it is a pain to actually sift through any of the video.

In any case your article says "none of this has happened" when obviously that particular thing couldn’t have happened.

In fact even the GAO says 3 of the benchmarks are met. Crocker stated revenue sharing/limited amnesty is happening regardless of legislation. What is more important, actual revenue sharing or a paper saying it?

There's going to be an assessment written by the WH released soon recommending a future course of action. Hence, White House assessment Oh, the ignorance.

Who knows which one they were talking about Ramo, since they both have the same name if you talk to any Democratic congressperson.

But by some miracle this network of newspapers got similar data as the AP, the GAO, Jones, and Petraeus. Through some black unamerican arts, no doubt...

So then they are deliberately distorting/ignoring it looking at your article, they directly contradict all four of those other assessments.

Though they said independently, so it isn't the same data, and since it isn't provided in your article how do you know what it says?

[Patroklos]

It was the same with Vietnam.

Oh wow, look, the new Godwin

1984, unrelated picture posts, Godwin, Pink Floyd? Are you going to try and lecture someone after that

Honestly Agathon, when is the last time you posted something relevant, to anything? You're just one long, tired internet cliché.

[Ramo]

In any case your article says "none of this has happened" when obviously that particular thing couldn’t have happened.

Why couldn't it have happened? We could be ahead of schedule by a couple months. Is your only problem with the article that the paragraph could've been better constructed?

In fact even the GAO says 3 of the benchmarks are met.

Were any of the three benchmarks (out of 18, mind you) one the article cited? You're attacking a straw man.

Crocker stated revenue sharing/limited amnesty is happening regardless of legislation. What is more important, actual revenue sharing or a paper saying it?

That's pretty much dependent on what exactly Crocker was talking about, isn't it?

Who knows which one they were talking about Ramo

Uh.. because that sentence didn't refer to Petraeus' testimony. What the hell, dude?

So then they are deliberately distorting/ignoring it looking at your article, they directly contradict all four of those other assessments.

You still haven't pointed out exactly in what way. With respect to what important piece of data does this assessment contradict all four other assessments in any significant way?

[Ramo]

Incidentally, there's another assessment coming from the Pentagon that goes further than Jones:

NEWSWEEK has learned that a separate internal report being prepared by a Pentagon working group will “differ substantially” from Petraeus’s recommendations, according to an official who is privy to the ongoing discussions but would speak about them only on condition of anonymity. An early version of the report, which is currently being drafted and is expected to be completed by the beginning of next year, will “recommend a very rapid reduction in American forces: as much as two-thirds of the existing force very quickly, while keeping the remainder there.” The strategy will involve unwinding the still large U.S. presence in big forward operation bases and putting smaller teams in outposts. “There is interest at senior levels [of the Pentagon] in getting alternative views” to Petraeus, the official said. Among others, Centcom commander Admiral William Fallon is known to want to draw down faster than Petraeus.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20712196/site/newsweek/

[Arrian]

Patroklos,

So it is your opinion that the government officials (specifically the general and ambassador - obviously not any of those damned Democrats) are the only ones who really know what is going on and are the only ones qualified to interpret the data for the rest of us little people?

Urge to make sweeping statements about "the right" rising...

-Arrian

[Patroklos]

he said that Iraqi and American troops would improve security while the Iraqi government improved services.

Both of these things, specifically mentioned, are happening so to say "none of this has happened" is false.

That's pretty much dependent on what exactly Crocker was talking about, isn't it?

He was exactly talking about revenue sharing and amnesty.

Uh.. because that sentence didn't refer to Petraeus' testimony. What the hell, dude?

Have you listened to any Democratic lawmaker speak in the last two weeks? Though in reality they were calling the Petreaus testimony (weeks before it was given) the "Bush Report" vice the "White House Report."

You still haven't pointed out exactly in what way. With respect to what important piece of data does this assessment contradict all four other assessments in any significant way?

The trend in sectarian violence is the most blatant. "Civilian deaths haven't decreased in any significant way across the country...despite military assertions to the contrary." They say it themselves. Then they say the military didn't provide numbers, which of course Petreaus did.

Incidentally, there's another assessment coming from the Pentagon that goes further than Jones

Interesting hearsay. But hey lets worry about a supposed report not coming out for five months, the existance of which is only known (or rather unknown) from an anonymous sourse instead of the one we heard yesterday from people in the know (and more importanty we know).

If that report ever comes out we can discuss it then. Though it would be five months from now, alot of things could be very different by then for better of worse. If it didn't differ from Petreaus's current report wouldn't that be odd?