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  • National Service/Draft?

    Came across this here article:

    Time
    September 10, 2007

    Would National Service Be Better Than the Draft?

    By Mark Thompson

    Soldiers hate friendly fire, especially when it comes from the White House. Yet that's just what happened late Friday, August 10, when Army Lieutenant General Douglas Lute, President Bush's deputy national security adviser for Iraq and Afghanistan, suggested it was time for the nation to consider resuming the draft. "It makes sense to certainly consider it," he told National Public Radio. The counterattack was intense. "There is absolutely no consideration being given to reinstituting a draft," Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said early the following Monday morning. General George Casey, the Army's top officer, also tossed a grenade Lute's way, 24 hours after Whitman, during an appearance at the National Press Club. While conceding today's Army is "out of balance" — making the woes afflicting the world's most potent fighting force sound like a wobbly Firestone 500 —Casey too tried to extinguish such talk. "Right now there is absolutely no consideration — at least within the Army — being given to reinstituting the draft," he said.

    Casey's qualification — "at least within the Army" — is significant. For while his view is shared by Robert Gates, the current defense secretary, it runs counter to the recommendation of the first Secretary Gates. At his confirmation hearing last December, Bob Gates called the Army's personnel woes "a transitory problem" that didn't warrant renewed conscription. Yet Thomas Gates, who served as defense secretary from 1959 to 1961, chaired a commission created by President Nixon in 1970 to consider doing away with the draft. While the panel recommended doing away with conscription — just as Nixon wanted — it also called on the nation to maintain a "standby draft" that would resume if there were "an emergency requiring a major increase in force over an extended period," which certainly fits today's sitrep. The commission pointedly noted that the draft's resurrection should be ordered by Congress, and not the President. "If a consensus sufficient to induce Congress to activate the draft cannot be mustered," it said, "the President would see the depth of national division before, rather than after, committing U.S. military power."

    Yet since the draft's end in 1973, it has become obvious that the nation has little stomach for its resumption, even as part of a bigger package mandating national service. While some military experts — including those who have worn the uniform — think national service, with a military option, makes sense, more are opposed to the notion. But it's also plain that the U.S. military's increasing isolation from U.S. society is not a good thing.

    Those who favor national service, including a military element, argue that it is a simple responsibility of citizenship that young people should incur in exchange for the fortune of being an American. George Washington and the 1918 Supreme Court embraced this view. Today's backers say it would help knit the various cliques of the nation together, they maintain, and help deal with a wide variety of problems — a lack of soldiers and inner-city teachers among them — at the same time.

    Opponents — among them Ronald Reagan and economist Milton Friedman —have maintained that such mandatory service has no place in the democracy. Many experts say that the sharp edge of today's volunteer military, honed over 35 years after initial opposition from the Pentagon, can only be dulled by adding draftees to the force. Most agree that any military obligation could be made more palatable if it were part of a bigger national-service program. Ideally, that would mean that even those fulfilling their national-service obligation by enlisting would do so, at least to some degree, voluntarily (because they could always have opted to have fulfilled that requirement by serving in some non-military slot).

    But much of this debate remains fuzzy: if there were a national-service requirement, might some be forced into the military against their will if all the civilian options were already filled? The Air Force, Marines and Navy haven't had much trouble filling their ranks, so would draftees all be funneled into the Army — and more specifically, into the blood-and-mud ground combat units? Beyond such concerns, military officers say, there plainly aren't sufficient jobs — or sufficient money — to employ the entire cohort (as of July 1, there were 4.3 million American 18-year-olds, and 4.4 million American 17-year-olds, according to the Census Bureau). So just as draft deferments poisoned the Vietnam-era draft, how would a new national-service program fairly choose among those eligible (the draft lottery, used for awhile at the end of the Vietnam war to select those who had to serve, has been replaced by state lotteries seeking to fund social programs on the backs of those least able to afford it. Perhaps it could be brought back to life, along with the draft). Would women be included, or exempt? Why include them when current law bars them from the combat forces most in need of personnel?

    Charles Moskos, the nation's pre-eminent military sociologist and a long-time professor at Northwestern University, has supported national service, including a military option, for the past half-century. "My drafted contemporary was Elvis Presley — just imagine how it would be if Justin Timberlake were serving today," he says. "I addressed a group of recruiters last year and I asked them if they'd prefer to have their advertising budget tripled or have Jenna Bush join the Army. They unanimously chose the Jenna option. If you get privileged youth serving," he adds, "it makes recruiting a lot easier." Moskos, who has spent decades visiting U.S. troops in various hotspots around the globe, likes to speak of his alma mater to show how times have changed. "In my Princeton class of 1956, out of 750 males, some 450 served, including Pete Du Pont and Johnny Apple," he says. "Last June's graduates — out of a class of 1,100, both men and women now — nine are serving."

    Rep. Charles Rangel, a New York Democrat, has pushed unsuccessfully since 2002 for a wartime-only draft. The Korean War veteran (he served in the Army from 1948 to 1952) and Bronze Star and Purple Heart winner unabashedly declares that his legislation would reduce the number of wars the nation fights. But he also adds that it would inspire a greater sense of citizenship among young people. "Shouldn't young Americans be given an opportunity to know and serve their country for two years?" he asks, recalling his own service. "There was something about that flag, something about the march, something about the music," he said in an interview with Time. "I know every son-of-a-***** who got out with me felt patriotic."

    Many in the military brush off Rangel's call because they think it is more of an anti-war proposal cloaked in civic-responsibility garb. They particularly disliked his original claim that minorities are over-represented in the all-volunteer military (after it became clear that was not the case, Rangel shifted his argument to focus on how the military's current makeup allegedly relies heavily on the poor. In a June report, the Congressional Budget Office said the scant available data on socio-economic status of the families of military members "suggest that individuals from all income groups are represented roughly proportionately in the enlisted ranks of the AVF.")

    Now chairman of the ways and means committee, Rangel unveiled a retooled version of his original bill — which lost in the full House, 402-to-2 shortly before the 2004 election — in January. "My bill requires that, during wartime, all legal residents of the U.S. between the ages of 18 and 42 would be subject to a military draft, with the number determined by the President," he said then. "No deferments would be allowed beyond the completion of high school, up to age 20, except for conscientious objectors or those with health problems. A permanent provision of the bill mandates that those not needed by the military be required to perform two years of civilian service in our sea and airports, schools, hospitals, and other facilities."

    Rangel says the civilian national service requirement would continue during peacetime under his proposal. "I know that if we had those people at Katrina their presence would have given so much hope to that community," he said in an August 24 interview. "If you went to the airports, they don't need guns — all they need is that (flag) patch (on their shoulder) and knowing that our country is there. The same in the train stations, school rooms and hospitals — there's so much that young people can do."

    He says his bill would make the U.S. less tilted toward war. "We never would have gone to war" in Iraq if legislation like his had been on the books, Rangel says. "I go to Wall Street for the last five years for one reason or the other. I'm in front of every Business Roundtable, the U.S. Chamber, and members of Congress and there's one question: if you knew at the time the President said he was going to invade Iraq, and there was a draft and your kids and grandkids would be vulnerable, would you support the President? And no honest son-of-a-***** has ever told me 'yes' — never," Rangel says. "When some of them mumble that, and their wives are there, I just look at the wives and they grab their husband's hand and say 'No, we would not support it.' If going to war meant talking about sending my kid, the answer would be 'Hell no, let's talk this over, let's wait awhile, let the UN come in, let's see where France is, I mean, let's see where the world is before you grab my kid."

    But if war did come, under Rangel's bill some young men and women would be forced to serve in uniform against their will if the military needed their bodies. "Mine is no exceptions, no exclusions, nobody's deferred" except for reasons of health or conscientious-objector status, Rangel says. "Under my bill, there are nine chances out of 10 your kid wouldn't go, but goddam he'd be required to be eligible to go if he was drafted, and that's the part that sticks in the craw of most members of Congress," Rangel says. "You take your chances — for every guy who gets killed, there's a hundred guys who don't come anywhere near the guy who gets killed — so your chances of getting shot are slim, but they're real."

    Moskos, like Rangel, likens his military tenure — he was a draftee in the U.S. Army, 1956-58 — as a personally profound rite of passage that the nation's youth (at least the males) no longer experiences. "There was a genuine mixing of all social groups, by race, region, education, social status," the proud Greek-American says. "When I talk to veterans today of any era, it's like talking to a fellow ethnic." He advocates a broad form of national service, where the military would just be one option among many. "Two-year draftees could well perform missions like border guards, peacekeeping, guards for nuclear and physical plants," he says. "Even many of the jobs on forward operating bases in Iraq could be well performed by draftees."

    Moskos says there is a sense of selfishness afoot in the country today. "This is the first war in American history where no sacrifice of any kind is being asked of our citizenry," he says. "And the soldiers in Operation Iraqi Freedom know this — 'patriotism lite' is the ethos of the day." That can be seen, he says, in our national politics. "In the last four presidential elections, the American public has voted for the draft dodger over the server," Moskos says, slighting the current President's controversial tenure in the Texas Air National Guard. "Contrary to conventional wisdom, being a military veteran is not a political advantage. It would be with the draft back in play." Moskos, like Rangel, believes that having a cross-section of the nation's youth serving in uniform means the nation would be less-inclined to go to war. "If you have privileged youth serving, going to war is much more debated, and you're much less likely to go in," he says. "But if privileged youth are in there, once you go to war, you're much more likely to hang in there."

    Lawrence Korb, who served as the Pentagon's personnel chief during the Reagan administration, also endorses the idea. "National service is great — I think everyone ought to do something for their country," he says. But he adds it shouldn't be thought of as a fix for the military. "The all-volunteer force is not in trouble — the all-volunteer Army is in trouble," he says. And he doesn't embrace Moskos' notion that salting the force with draftees would make going to war more difficult. "If there had been national service, including the Army, on the eve of the war —remember, on the eve of the war, 60 percent of the American people thought Saddam had weapons of mass destruction." If military service is merely one option among many for national service, Korb isn't convinced it would affect what wars the nation chooses to fight. "The only thing that acts as a brake is when you force people to go into the military," says Korb, a Navy veteran, "particularly the ground forces."

    David Segal, another prominent military sociologist, also thinks national service would be a good idea for the country. "The military is opposed to a broad national service system because they assume that they would get the short end of the stick," says Segal, director of the University of Maryland's Center for Research on Military Organization. Pentagon complaints that draftees would dull the military's fighting prowess are bogus, he says. "The distinction we make between combat and combat support doesn't reflect the realities of 21st Century warfare," he says. "We're sending individuals from the Air Force and the Navy to be soldiers." Segal says it is "political suicide" to advocate for a draft amid a war, but says a program of national service would have a better chance because of its non-military options. He argues that it should not be compulsory, but strongly encouraged: college loans and grants might be contingent upon such services, as would public employment and maybe even drivers' licenses. "It should be as minimally coercive as possible," Segal says. "You need to reward it with a carrot rather than punishing non-compliance with a stick."

    While most civilian military experts interviewed support the idea of national service, including the military, most retired military officers are on the other side of the argument. (It's worth noting here that the military opposed ending the draft a generation ago, so their opposition needs to be taken with a grain of salt.) They argue that when the draft was last used, the military was largely a low-tech enterprise. But now the inside of an M-1 tank looks more like the bridge of the Starship Enterprise, and takes substantial training to operate effectively. The cost of such training would skyrocket if draftee soldiers had to serve only two-year hitches, meaning greater numbers would have to be trained because of their shorter time in uniform. Even more critical, veterans say, is the ethos of the all-volunteer force, which is difficult to measure but impossible to ignore.

    National service "is an absolutely bad idea," says Barry McCaffrey, a retired four-star Army general. "My age group learned to love the volunteer military." While McCaffrey says the idea of national service "makes sense in a civic sense" it would lead to lesser-quality soldiers. "We've never had better soldiers in the country's history" than we do now. "They volunteer for the Army, volunteer for combat units, they're high school graduates without felonies, they stay longer," he says, rattling off attributes he fears would shrink with national service.

    Robert Scales, a retired Army major general, is an Army historian who once commanded the Army War College. "War has become so complex, and so dependent on ground forces, that the idea of drafting soldiers would greatly harm the American military," he says. "First of all, they wouldn�t go into the military goddammit — they'd go into the Army. And if they go into the Army, they're going to go into the combat ops" — infantry, armor, artillery — "because those are the jobs that nobody wants." To Scales, the paradox of resuming any kind of draft is that it would fill those ranks with people who do not want to be there, just as those ranks have become increasingly important. "The critical job in today's military — the jobs that have to be done right — are those close-combat jobs," he says. "So the irony is that in a draft those skills and will and morale and physical fitness — all those things that we most need in the close combat arms — are least likely to be attained."

    John Keane, the Army's former No. 2 general, differs slightly from his colleagues. He is willing to entertain the idea of national service, including the military, so long as no one is forced to serve in uniform against his or her will. "National service is a good idea so long as the military, which would be the most demanding of the national service options, has to stay completely voluntary," he says. "We wouldn't want anybody in it who didn't want to be in it. I think that is a compromise that we in the military should be willing to make for the betterment of the country." Keane says today's youngsters are yearning to serve. "I've been dealing with this age group — from 17 to 25 — for most of my adult life," he says. "The current group of young people, particularly in the post 9/11-era, have a sense of purpose about them — they want to do something with their lives. It's not just in terms of 'What's good for me?'

    Keane says that while such service "would be only for a very short period of time, I think the experience and satisfaction of it would actually last a lifetime." And he doesn't think it would harm the Army. "When you have volunteers, you can demand so much more of them," he says. "I'd like to think that the people who would still join us under a national-service requirement would really want to be a part of it. While some of them would be a little more challenging than the volunteers we have today, I would like to think that it would not diminish the Army." And there would be an added benefit. "With the professionalization of the Army, we have a tendency to be considerably more isolated from the American people," Keane says. "In terms of the health of the nation, and even of the institution itself called the U.S. military, the fact that more people would be connected to it through some form of national service would be very healthy."

    Today's military was built to fight Colin Powell's kind of war — brief and intense — like the 1991 Gulf War. The U.S. military really doesn't have the depth to wage a sustained ground campaign as we are now doing in Iraq, many military officers say. If the U.S. thinks its future will consist of drawn-out campaigns like that now underway in Iraq, the prospect of a draft makes more sense. While the 1.4 million-strong U.S. military (with another 1 million reservists) is at the breaking point with only 162,000 troops in Iraq, that total is well below what experts estimated would be needed to tame that country. The Rand Corp. said in 2003 that, based on historical troop-to-population ratios from prior wars, the number of troops needed in Iraq would range from 258,000 (based on Bosnia) to 321,000 (based on post-World War II Germany) to 528,000 (based on Kosovo). The numbers suggest that if the U.S. really believes there is a war on terror to be won — and, if as the Bush Administration keeps saying, it is going to be a long war — more troops are going to be required to wage it.

    Indeed, the all-volunteer force is getting expensive. The Congressional Budget Office reported in June that a string of pay raises and benefit hikes have led to a 21 percent pay hike over the past six years for enlisted troops. The bottom line, according to the CBO: the average soldier is better paid than the average civilian. While such comparisons are difficult to make, the CBO reported that enlisted military personnel are paid at a rate equal to the 75th percentile of private-sector workers with similar education. (For those whose math skills have deteriorated, that means that those wearing the nation's uniform are paid more than 75 percent of their civilian counterparts.) The Pentagon, in recent years, has tried to peg its salaries for enlisted folks at the 70th percentile. Too often, Pentagon officials say, comparisons of military pay only measure paychecks, which shortchanges military people who receive many valuable benefits — largely tax-free food and housing allowances — that civilians don't.

    In a second report released August 15, the CBO noted that total pay for a starting soldier is $54,900 when allowances and bonuses are included. "We're getting a little too heavy on having a professional Army — the bills that are going to be coming due for retirement and medical care are going to be horrendous," Moskos says. "We're ending up with overpaid recruits and underpaid sergeants — in the old days a master sergeant with 20 years' experience made about six times what a private did — now it's about 2.5 to 1." Rangel agrees. "In terms of military volunteers, a lot of money is put into that to pump up patriotism — I mean $20,000, $30,000, $40,000 in enlistment and retention bonuses," he says. Of course, the true cost of renewing the draft — for good and for ill — could go well beyond figures punched into Pentagon calculators.
    Made me think of th next generation of WASP Aggressors.
    Today, you are the waves of the Pacific, pushing ever eastward. You are the sequoias rising from the Sierra Nevada, defiant and enduring.

  • #2
    It's from the future!
    Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
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    • #3


      "Welcome to Muppet Labs, where the future is being made today"
      Last edited by BeBMan; September 5, 2007, 09:02.
      Blah

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      • #4
        "an emergency requiring a major increase in force over an extended period," which certainly fits today's sitrep.
        Did history start in 2003

        While national service is fine with me, it is a joke to institute a military draft for non military ends. The military is a serious enterprise, not some social studies experiment. If your national high way cleanup scheme doesn't work oh well, if your draft screws up the military then people die.

        Though I would support making the draftee units more provisional. Make them the national guard and move the NG resources and billets to the active side.
        "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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        • #5
          This is an interesting question. It's difficult to say yes or no. Yes, for the sake of decision making taking things more seroiusly, however, this is a decision making problem, not war problem. How to know which wars to enter....

          This would surely raise the bar of entering, is that good or bad? Difficult to say, depends how high the limits now are. But this still is a decision making problem. War should be the last measure taken, so yes, draft etc should play no role in it anyway, it shouldn't change the decision, however in reality it would, because we do enter war more lightly.

          But no, I don't support national service/draft. I woud encourage enhancing decision making process though.
          In da butt.
          "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
          THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
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          • #6
            It really wouldn't have the effect that Rangel thinks anyways. We don't just draft every person eligible, or a certain number over a certain period of time. We have a force structure with an upper limit on strength and we draft what is required to meet that limit.

            In peace time (and in wartime, the shortfall in recruits is a ridiculously small percentage) we have no problem recruiting to that limit, so when the decision to go to war is made most of the military will still be AVF. It would take around a year for draftees to hit the lines, and in the last 3 decades how many of our wars have lasted a year?

            To have the effect Rangel wants in both the sense of instilling pride in service and a link between the military and the populous (which is as strong as ever, I am not sure where he gets this) you would need to maintain a force well above what volunteers fill anyways. That means $$$.
            Last edited by Patroklos; September 5, 2007, 09:50.
            "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Patroklos


              Did history start in 2003

              While national service is fine with me, it is a joke to institute a military draft for non military ends. The military is a serious enterprise, not some social studies experiment. If your national high way cleanup scheme doesn't work oh well, if your draft screws up the military then people die.

              Though I would support making the draftee units more provisional. Make them the national guard and move the NG resources and billets to the active side.

              Strictly speaking, he was talking about making there be some kind of National Service with the military option being voluntariy(sic). So even then the military would consist of volunteers...we'd just get more of them.
              Today, you are the waves of the Pacific, pushing ever eastward. You are the sequoias rising from the Sierra Nevada, defiant and enduring.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Lonestar



                Strictly speaking, he was talking about making there be some kind of National Service with the military option being voluntariy(sic). So even then the military would consist of volunteers...we'd just get more of them.
                as the article states, given the size each annual cohort, and the comparitively small need for additional military recruits even in the current situation, the vast majority would have to go into civilian services, most of which dont exist currently, or are small and funded on a shoe string.

                Is the nation prepared to pay what it would take to train and deploy hundreds of thousands of young people to a vastly expanded Vista-Americorps-transform the inner cities "force"? Or to a vastly expanded Peace Corps?


                Id be all for it, but I dont know that its politically feasible.
                "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                • #9
                  What would the labor pool look like if we took all the 17-19 year olds out of the work force, and more importantly all the 23-25 year olds two years down the line as they will starting college later?
                  "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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                  • #10
                    How long have I been saying this very thing? The whole time I've been here? No doubt.
                    The only "C" I got in college was in Speech, and was directly related to a "C" I got in a persuasive speech advocating national service.
                    Military, Peace Corp, whatever.

                    I'm so ahead of my time, sometime it even startles me.
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Patroklos
                      What would the labor pool look like if we took all the 17-19 year olds out of the work force, and more importantly all the 23-25 year olds two years down the line as they will starting college later?
                      that will be offset by the 65 yo's who have to wait two more years to retire

                      But yeah, theres an opportunity cost, beyond the wage cost (assuming you pay the national service kids less than the prevailing wage)

                      There is no free lunch.

                      Of course if we were do a massive transformation of the slums, etc with regular adult labor, that would impact the labor market as well.

                      The question is A. Whether we want to do these things in the first place and B. Whether the side benefits of national service, in terms of character-building, establishing a national ethic of service, pedagogical value of exposure to different experiences, and generational solidarity, would offset the loss of liberty, and the costs involved in having this work done by disgruntled would be investment bankers, and the admin costs of the program.
                      "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                      • #12
                        Honestly, I think an army of 8+ million slave labors roaming around doing all this work for free will only hurt the poor.
                        "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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                        • #13
                          Why do people still think this has should have something to do with popular vote?

                          War isn't supposed to be a matter of who likes it. It's supposed to be the last measure taken, and as such the popular vote matters very little. So it's just a decision making process.

                          In any decision that requires quite a lot of analyzing, data gathering and so forth, emotions should have very little room in the decision. It's supposed to be pragmatic, not emotional.
                          In da butt.
                          "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                          THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                          "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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                          • #14
                            What about the 13th Amendment is unclear?

                            13th. Amendment to the U.S. Constitution

                            Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

                            Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.



                            If we force a group of people to work, whether that work involves getting shot at in Iraq or picking up the side of a highway, it is involuntary servitude. Period. Justifications about patriotism, or military shortfalls, or character-building are all absolutely irrelevant.

                            17-19 year olds are not property that you can simply assign where you see fit. They are human beings with plans, dreams, responsibilities and lives. Stealing two years of their life cannot be justified. Period.
                            Captain of Team Apolyton - ISDG 2012

                            When I was younger I thought curfews were silly, but now as the daughter of a young woman, I appreciate them. - Rah

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by OzzyKP
                              What about the 13th Amendment is unclear?

                              13th. Amendment to the U.S. Constitution

                              Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

                              Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

                              The 13th amendment was proposed when the USA had conscription in place, and had a tradition of compulsory militia service going back before the revolution. If it was intended to ban conscription I think that would be clear from the debates at the time.

                              AFAIK SCOTUS has never held it to refer to conscription.
                              "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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