National Service/Draft?

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
What about the 13th Amendment is unclear?

Yeah, because that flies so well whenever a fella is up at the local Draft Board.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by OzzyKP

17-19 year olds are not property that you can simply assign where you see fit.

They are citizens, who can be tasked with the responsibilities that we as a society assign to citizens.

They are human beings with plans, dreams, responsibilities and lives.

Many of whom would gladly serve in various forms, if it didnt mean being two years behind everyone else in their generation.

[OzzyKP]

What tasks does society assign to citizens against their will?

[lord of the mark]

"There has also been some question raised about the draft in regards to the 13th Amendment. Surely the draft, for at least some, constitutes involuntary servitude, prohibited by the 13th. The only exception the 13th contemplates for slavery or involuntary servitude is as a punishment for a duly convicted crime. However, the courts have ruled that the intent of the 13th was never to abolish the draft, and that serving in the military, even against your will, is not involuntary servitude. These "duties owed to the government" are exempted from 13th Amendment protection. In Butler v Perry (240 US 328 [1916]), the Supreme Court wrote:

[The 13th Amendment] introduced no novel doctrine with respect of services always treated as exceptional, and certainly was not intended to interdict enforcement of those duties which individuals owe to the state, such as services in the army, militia, on the jury, etc. The great purpose in view was liberty under the protection of effective government, not the destruction of the latter by depriving it of essential powers.

Butler did not directly concern the draft. It addressed laws that required able-bodied men to work on state roads for their maintenance when called by the state. However, its implications for the draft are clear and a case decided just two years later (Arver v US [245 US 366 {1918}]) set it in stone:

[A]s we are unable to conceive upon what theory the exaction by government from the citizen of the performance of his supreme and noble duty of contributing to the defense of the rights and honor of the nation as the result of a war declared by the great representative body of the people can be said to be the imposition of involuntary servitude in violation of the prohibitions of the Thirteenth Amendment, we are constrained to the conclusion that the contention to that effect is refuted by its mere statement."

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
What tasks does society assign to citizens against their will?

Primary education.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
What tasks does society assign to citizens against their will?

Military/militia service and jury duty are the most common in the history of the US, though as my post above indicates there have been others, including road maintenance. In some other countries voting is mandatory, and presumably the 13th amendment would not prevent that here, if we chose to pass it.

[Jon Miller]

2 years is a lot of time in physics, where you will already be old before you are well situated anyways.

JM

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
2 years is a lot of time in physics, where you will already be old before you are well situated anyways.

JM

How do physics students in countries with (or that have recently had) conscription manage?

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
The great purpose in view was liberty under the protection of effective government, not the destruction of the latter by depriving it of essential powers.

What part of the Constitution grants the government power to raise a draft?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Lorizael


What part of the Constitution grants the government power to raise a draft?

' Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution empowers Congress to "provide for the common defense" and "raise and support armies,"

-snip-

The Constitution does permit the separate states (or "the several states," as we legal scholars like to put it) to organize militias for home defense (note the Second Amendment), and in the broadest sense the militia in colonial times consisted of every male 18 and over who was healthy enough to carry a gun. So (in this view, anyway), while the federal government can't draft people, the states can.

What enables the federal government to conduct the draft is clause 15 of Article I, Section 8, which permits Congress to call out the militia to "execute the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections and repel invasion." This means that Congress can send draftees off to foreign countries after a declaration of war, which has the force of law. '

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Military/militia service and jury duty are the most common in the history of the US, though as my post above indicates there have been others, including road maintenance. In some other countries voting is mandatory, and presumably the 13th amendment would not prevent that here, if we chose to pass it.

Jury duty only applies to individuals who have registered to vote. So you have some element of choice. Plus giving up a day or two is much different than giving up two years of your life. Same with mandatory voting which requires at most an hour of your time. But we have never had mandatory voting in this country, nor do I expect we will ever have it.

[Patroklos]

What tasks does society assign to citizens against their will?

Paying taxes.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Paying taxes.

That's voluntary. You only pay taxes if you live somewhere, make money, or buy things.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



' Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution empowers Congress to "provide for the common defense" and "raise and support armies,"

-snip-

The Constitution does permit the separate states (or "the several states," as we legal scholars like to put it) to organize militias for home defense (note the Second Amendment), and in the broadest sense the militia in colonial times consisted of every male 18 and over who was healthy enough to carry a gun. So (in this view, anyway), while the federal government can't draft people, the states can.

What enables the federal government to conduct the draft is clause 15 of Article I, Section 8, which permits Congress to call out the militia to "execute the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections and repel invasion." This means that Congress can send draftees off to foreign countries after a declaration of war, which has the force of law. '

That is a considerable leap of logic. Nothing in there refers to involuntary military service. Congress does, without question, have the power to create an army and use it how the government sees fit, but there is nothing that allows a draft.

To answer the question about whether the states can draft you need to refer to their state constitutions. I am skeptical they have a provision in their constitutions specifically granting the state the right to draft. Furthermore, if we left it up to the states we'd quickly see a highly regionalized army (well more than we already do) where liberal states will ban the draft and red states will enforce it. Then draft dodgers wouldn't need to flee to Canada, they'd simply move to Vermont.

Justifying the draft on the basis of state's rights would pose an insurmountable challenge to implementing a draft.

[Patroklos]

That's voluntary. You only pay taxes if you live somewhere, make money, or buy things.

Oh

What about Sociall Security?