The Sports Forum should be renamed..

[SlowwHand]

Let's rename Imran instead. I'm sure his folks would just love that idea.

[Winston]

I still don't like that tone of yours.

The evidence is there. It's not working. Ming can call it a success all he wants. You, I and most others can see that it's not.

[Asmodean]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
And STILL, Winston, nor his lackies, have posted threads in the Sports Forum about some wider discussion about sports or a non covered sport.

I resent that. There has been no discussion at all between Winston and I about this subject.

The fact that I, and a number of posters are agreeing with Winston is perhaps a testament to the fact that we are on to something here. That it is the division of OT and sports talk that has stopped discussion of almost all sports other than a few ones.

But you conveniently choose to ignore that, don't you?

Asmodean

[Locutus]

Re: The Sports Forum should be renamed..

Winston and Asmodean et al seem to have a rather selective memory. We've never had much discussion on sports like athletics and tennis and such. Not now, but not before we had a Sports forum either. And 95% of the cycling discussion we used to have was just trolling and countertrolling about how doped the sport was -- I was always disappointed with the lack of real cycling discussion on this site, a sentiment that long precedes the Sport forum. While that forum didn't remedy this issue as I had hoped it would, at least the trolling has much reduced now, which I consider somewhat of an improvement.

But with the overall forum activity greatly reduced compared to what it was in the past, you can hardly count on these type of discussions faring better in the Sports forum now than they did 4-5 years ago in the OT.

That said, if you want these sports to be discussed it helps if you start some threads on them, which I haven't seen you do. In fact, if I'm not mistaken LordShiva is the only 'complainer' in this thread who actually actively posts in the Sports forum. In fact, he just started a thread on tennis which already got several replies in the first few hours -- with all due respect, that's a much better way to deal with this problem than just whinging and b*tching about it and not contributing at all in the Sports forum.

As far as the football discussions go, in the past 90% of it was the direct result of Paul's prediction pools. After he retired -- long before the Sports forum was created -- the football discussion slowed to a crawl. It was initially the World Football thread that revived it somewhat (though you often still had to dig it up from page 4 or 5) and when the Sports forum was created things improved further. Now it's more alive than it has been since Paul's retirement.

If you want even more football discussion on more diverse topics someone will have to pick up the slack and restart those prediction pools. I'm sure that if someone is willing to take the time to organise them it'll soon be as successful as it used to be -- I will play (and take part in resulting discussions) for sure, I used to love those things. I just don't have the time to organise them myself.

I do agree that non-EPL related discussions can get lost in the World Football thread because it's so huge. However, there's nothing to stop you from posting other football topics in a separate thread if you want to avoid that. Just because that thread exists doesn't mean other threads aren't allowed. I see that thread more for general discussion and banter, where you can post stuff that might not warrant its own thread.

As for other non-US sports, as pointed out, several sports always do quite well even in the Sports forum -- as well or better than they did before that forum was created: cricket, rugby and Formula 1. Combined with football I'd say the non-US sports probably are probably responsible for 30-40% of all activity in the Sports forum (even if that's concentrated in only 4 or 5 threads). Perhaps not as much as we might like it to be but hardly a token amount -- and there's an easy way to improve on it: contribute!

Of all three sub-forums I feel that the Sports forum is the only one that is an unqualified success. There is now more sports discussion than ever before, despite the overall declined activity level. I can have some sympathy for the sentiment that there could be more diversity in the sports discussed but to say that there was much more of that in the past than there is now is a completely baseless claim.

[Asmodean]

Re: Re: The Sports Forum should be renamed..

Originally posted by Locutus

That said, if you want these sports to be discussed it helps if you start some threads on them, which I haven't seen you do. In fact, if I'm not mistaken LordShiva is the only 'complainer' in this thread who actually actively posts in the Sports forum. In fact, he just started a thread on tennis which already got several replies in the first few hours -- with all due respect, that's a much better way to deal with this problem than just whinging and b*tching about it and not contributing at all in the Sports forum.

Okay guys...now you are REALLY starting to p*ss me off. Why the f*ck is it that everytime someone suggests something on these forums, and then tries to formulate some cohenrent arguments about it, it has to be taken by the admins for whining and b*tching????

As far as I can see, in this thread, Winston and I, and myself in my PM yesterday to Dan have been polite and tried to present our case in an orderly manner.

When you look through this thread, it very much seems to me that the whining and b*tching is done by other ppl (names withheld).

Show me one case in this thread that could arguably be called whining or b*tching done by myself, please - will you do that, huh, Locutus??

The fact remains, that Winston felt he had a case here. I agreed with him, and without consulting him tried to back him up. Why on Earth this warrants such treatment from the admins, is beyond me.

And for the record, I am an active poster in the sports forum. That you made this post without bothering to check that, is only a further testament to your attitude towards your posters

Asmodean

[Locutus]

Re: Re: Re: The Sports Forum should be renamed..

Originally posted by Asmodean
Show me one case in this thread that could arguably be called whining or b*tching done by myself, please - will you do that, huh, Locutus??

Perhaps my wording was a bit harsh but the fact is that I see people complaining about this issue (however politely and well-argumented) but not doing anything about it themselves.

Don't get me wrong, your (and others) well-worded and well-argumented feedback is very much appreciated (especially the fact that it *is* well-worded and well-argumented) and it has been seriously considered by the administration, but we unanimously agree that in this specific case you have absolutely no case.

And for the record, I am an active poster in the sports forum. That you made this post without bothering to check that, is only a further testament to your attitude towards your posters

As a matter of fact I did check it. You posted 4 times in the Sports forum in the last 3 months, all in the past week or so. That's not active in my book.

[Winston]

My, that sounds so great, I almost want to buy some shares in the thing, if it weren't for the fact that 90% of OT posters refuse to go there for some mysterious reason.

Among those 90% were a good deal who could occasionally be persuaded to check out a sport thread or two in the OT. That is, before sport was taken away from them. Before the balanced, diverse and well-functioning OT was split up by the owners' desire to make it marginally easier on fantasy gamers, too few in number to even form a proper football side among them. American or Association, they'd never make it.

But since the Sports Forum is on record as being an unqualified success, all those non-posters must have gotten it horribly wrong somehow. However, many of them still stick around in the OT, so the situation could easily be corrected by reverting to an un-divided and versatile forum, the one that people had come to love. It would require some bold decision making though. Could you cope again with the increased overall traffic?

[Winston]

By the way, isn't it curious how, apart from Berzerker at the very beginning of this thread, nobody outside the staff pool has spoken in favour of keeping the Sports Forum separate? Or was there one other than Berzerker? I think so.

I wonder if there is some convoluted message there that perhaps we aren't all as aligned as we ought to be.

[Locutus]

So we should kill the sports forum and with it probably half the total amount of sports discussion we currently have just because a few people are too lazy to click an extra link? Sorry, but if you think we had more sports discussion in the past you're living in la-la land.

And FYI in the past month 85 people posted in the Sports forum, enough to fill 2 full NFL squads and almost 8 football teams It's also 1/3 of the people who posted in the OT in the same time period (=262), which is hardly a small minority.

[Winston]

No, Locutus, let me be frank here. The amount of sport discussion that is there would of course carry over into the OT. Why wouldn't it?

I honestly don't see what the downside would be to re-integrating the Sports Forum into the OT. I see several benefits, as I've been advocating at length, but what would be the downside?

What is keeping you from doing what so many people ask? Is it fear of the implicit admission on your part that a less-than-optimal decision was made that had to be corrected? No, that can't be it; people would be too busy thanking you for your enlightened leadership in reversing it to linger on that for very long.

Fantasy gamers, for whom the separation was apparently performed, amazingly as it seems, could have their threads distinctly marked for identification to facilitate easy retrieval, since that appears to be of some concern, however strange that sounds to an outsider.

I don't get it. Is it just plain stubbornness that you refuse to change things back, even when they're obviously not working to the satisfaction of most posters? Or is it because other sites to whom you compare yourselves have sport forums, and therefore you feel that you must have one too - regardless of whether it's actually working or not? Is it a selling point for advertisers or what?

No. Let me have $5 on stubbornness, please.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Winston
No, Locutus, let me be frank here. The amount of sport discussion that is there would of course carry over into the OT. Why wouldn't it?

There's absolutely no reason not to believe it wouldn't go down to the level it was just before the Sports forum was created, which was considerably lower than it is now. If you choose to continue to stick your head in the sand and believe otherwise that's fine, but we base our decisions on facts, not your private fantasies.

What is keeping you from doing what so many people ask?

Only a very small number of people have complained, while the facts are showing that the forum is a success. You are welcome to disagree but we do not cater to you alone.

[Winston]

And that, as they say, is that.

Give Ming a pat from me, will you, in recognition of this stunning success he has brought about.

It's nice to to know we're all permanently stuck with it as we continue on down the slope together.

[Locutus]

Re: Re: The Sports Forum should be renamed..

Originally posted by Locutus
We've never had much discussion on sports like athletics and tennis and such. Not now, but not before we had a Sports forum either.

As for other non-US sports, as pointed out, several sports always do quite well even in the Sports forum -- as well or better than they did before that forum was created: cricket, rugby and Formula 1.

Actually, going back through the history of the Sports forum I think a small correction is in place: tennis is one of the sports that gets a fair amount of attention there. Every Grand Slam tournament this season has had its own thread (Wimbledon even had two), and all but one had 30+ posts, which might not compare to the football and American football discussion but over an entire season is comparable to F1 and cricket. I guess it just doesn't stand out as much because tennis is more of an event-oriented sport where most other sports are season-based.

[Winston]

Oh, who cares, Locutus. The Sports Forum is an unqualified success, it's not like you need to justify anything beyond informing us of that.

I would like to also note that an unexpected side-benefit of our exchange here is I feel I've gotten a much better impression of the kind of person you are.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Winston
I still don't like that tone of yours.

Too ****ing bad. Sorry, I'm not going to treat your opinions as "fact" and I'm not going to look out for your wittle feelings either. Deal with it.

Of course I may also point out that your tone hasn't been wonderful either. Or do you think saying you know "what kind of person" Locutus is is a good tone?