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Originally posted by Richelieu
Bin Laden's actually.
Bin Laden's actually.
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I'm think the GOP got that one last time around though."The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists."
-Joan Robinson -
Nice quote, just a couple of "minor" points.Originally posted by Ramo
Enough troops on the ground in Afghanistan to do the job properly
The associated press are hardly a credible or impartial judge of either who is a civilian or who killed who in the hinterlands of Afghanistan.
Also note that nothing is said of how the western forces killed the 286 people acscribed to them by the AP.
Have civilians been killed by us? I'm sure some have. Its a war. Do we "just air-raid villages and kill civilians"? No. But thats what he said. Obama's as clueless about military matters as most of the innocents who post here.
BTW I'd be interested in knowing just how many troops on the ground do you reckon would be "enough"?We need seperate human-only games for MP/PBEM that dont include the over-simplifications required to have a good AI
If any man be thirsty, let him come unto me and drink. Vampire 7:37
Just one old soldiers opinion. E Tenebris Lux. Pax quaeritur bello.Comment
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They're as credible and impartial as anyone else dealing with the question. As the article noted, Karzai specifically told Bush that we are killing too many civilians, which is indeed causing problems for him. One of the reasons why this is happening, as Obama noted, is an over-reliance on air power due to the lack of troops on the ground. I don't know exactly how many troops we do need. Consensus seem to be around a few brigades...
Obviously he mis-spoke. He shouldn't have used the word "just." That doesn't make him stupid. If you really want to count badly worded sentences as evidence of stupidity, Bush's intelligence level clocks in at somewhere around a pickled mango.
Anyways a similar article:
More Afghan Civilians Killed in Airstrikes
By BARRY BEARAK and TAIMOOR SHAH
KABUL, Afghanistan, June 30 — In what has become a dolefully familiar episode, local Afghan officials reported Saturday that dozens of civilians, and perhaps a great many more, were killed during United States-led coalition airstrikes, this time in the Grishk district of the southern province of Helmand, where dozens of civilians died under similar circumstances last week.
Contacted by telephone, the mayor of Grishk, Dor Ali Shah, and tribal elders said the allied bombardment began late Friday and continued Saturday, coming soon after insurgents had attacked coalition ground forces.
“We have received differing numbers of the civilian and the militants’ casualties,” the mayor said. “We sent delegates to the site, but the area was surrounded by coalition forces. Some sources tell us the number of civilian dead is 120, others say 60, others say 35. We are actually mixed up, so we will wait to confirm.”
Haji Zahir, a tribal elder who said he had been in touch with residents of effected villages, said: “People tried to escape from the area with their cars, trucks and tractors, and the coalition airplanes bombed them because they thought they were the enemy fleeing. They told me that they had buried 170 bodies so far.”
Hajji Assadullah, another elder, said that 35 villagers, fleeing in a tractor-trailer, had been hit by an airstrike. “There were only two survivors, an old man and his son, and the son was seriously injured, and I saw them with my own eyes,” he said.
Dr. Ainaytullah Ghafari, the director of the Grishk Hospital, said he had treated three children from one family.
“They had lost seven relatives,” Dr. Ghafari said. “The bombs hit houses, and people ran in order to survive. Most of the victims were women and children. About 60 to 65 civilians have been killed in Kakaran village.”
The coalition’s account, while not denying civilian deaths, was decidedly different.
According to a coalition spokesman, Maj. Chris Belcher, the allied forces, which included Afghans, came under heavy fire from small arms, mortar shells and grenades, near the village of Haderabad.
The allies returned fire and called in air support, aimed at “clearly identified firing positions,” he said in a prepared statement.
“Remains of some people who apparently were civilians were found among insurgent fighters who were killed in firing positions in a trench line,” the major’s account read. “We are deeply saddened by any loss of innocent lives. Insurgents are continuing their tactic of using women and children as human shields in close combat with friendly forces.”
More than 50,000 foreign troops are in Afghanistan, the bulk of them American. Fierce combat goes on almost every day in five of Afghanistan’s southern provinces where the Taliban have proved a stubborn fighting force.
The United States-led coalition and NATO commonly use airstrikes against retreating insurgents.
In recent months, the rising number of civilian deaths has provoked severe criticism.
The Taliban, of course, come under censure. But the allies, too, are accused of being cavalier with civilian life.
On June 19, Acbar, a coalition of Afghan and international relief agencies such as CARE, Save the Children and Mercy Corps, said that the civilian toll had reached at least 230 this year, with “excessive use of force” sapping the “initial good will toward the international military presence.”
On June 23, President Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan accused the United States military and its NATO allies of carrying out “careless operations.” He said, “Afghan life is not cheap and should not be treated as such.”
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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Originally posted by SlowwHand
Fred Thompson.
"I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003Comment
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Whereas, you know, the Pentagon is.The associated press are hardly a credible or impartial judge of either who is a civilian or who killed who in the hinterlands of Afghanistan.
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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No, the GOP is !
"Ceterum censeo Ben esse expellendum."Comment
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Right. Even the Pentagon has its share of traitor Democrats. How could I forget?
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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I've heard this tune before, it's gotten old.A check of the facts shows that Western forces have been killing civilians at a faster rate than the insurgents have been killing civilians.
Ya that's trustworthyThe Associated Press has been keeping count based on figures from Afghan and international officials.
But everyone better believe the AP because they've used such credible sources!Tracking civilian deaths is a difficult task because they often occur in remote and dangerous areas that are difficult to reach and verify.
The only thing I agree with is that we are killing too many civilians. I would like to see measures taken to reduce this.EViiiiiiL!!! - Mermaid ManComment
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