The "surge" is a success?

[Shrapnel12]

Everyone keeps saying how things were better under Sadam for Iraq. I'm asking for figures to see if it's true. I would not count deaths resulting from sanctions, Iraq/Iran war, or the Gulf War I that were killed indirectly (e.g. death by U.S. military). I'm thinking mainly deaths from direct action against his own people such as the Kurds and political prisoners.

[Arrian]

Everyone, huh? Who?

-Arrian

[DinoDoc]

Michael Moore.

[Arrian]

Well, I guess he's big enough to be mistaken for "everyone," so I'll give you guys a pass...

-Arrian

[DinoDoc]

Well there's always Kos as well but I don't know which everyone he's referring to.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Shrapnel12
Everyone keeps saying how things were better under Sadam for Iraq. I'm asking for figures to see if it's true. I would not count deaths resulting from sanctions, Iraq/Iran war, or the Gulf War I that were killed indirectly (e.g. death by U.S. military). I'm thinking mainly deaths from direct action against his own people such as the Kurds and political prisoners.

1. Your first assertion is a blatantly false BAM.
2. Figures are simple to find- google can do it in about a minute, if you put the right search words

3. As with the discussion with Kuci, the issue is when you want to compare, and what kind of deaths:
Deaths from the Iraq-Iran war were mostly military, though both sides did bomb each other's cities. Still, most people make a distinction between dead soldiers in the battlefield and dead civilians from terrorist. Then there are the Anfal campaign and the crushing of the Shiite rebellion - both killed more people than the current Iraq war, though both lasted far less as well, so it would be comparing brief and spectacular violence to a steady drumbeat of violence. As for the sanctions, the Iraqis and the US don't really keep numbers on how many Iraqis die daily from the collapse of public services and order currently, which would be the accurate number of comparison in that regard - though of course the sanctions were not Saddam's decision anyways.

[Patroklos]

though of course the sanctions were not Saddam's decision anyways.

In Gepap world perhaps, in real life he is both the reason they were created and only reason they were never lifted.

[DinoDoc]

though of course the sanctions were not Saddam's decision anyways.

The effects of the sanctions however can be laid at his feet. I don't see how it could be otherwise given the fact Iraqi Kurdistan did fine while under the same sanctions.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

so after last few pages of this thread I can conclude that

a) "when measuring the effect of something we need to know how the dependent variable changed, not its absolute value."
b) that Michael Moore is everyone
c) US is worse than Saddam

Poly passes the grade for good education again

[Arrian]

Sigh.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
US is worse than Saddam

The US is worse than Saddam... AT GETTING INVADED.

[Shrapnel12]

Just for the record in case anyone cares to respong to a post of mine in the future, I'm a bit of a lazy poster. I don't like to type more then I have to, so instead of saying, Bob, Jim, Frank, and Fred, I'll say everyone. Much less typing. If this is a problem, feel free to ignore my posts.

[Arrian]

[GePap]

Originally posted by Patroklos


In Gepap world perhaps, in real life he is both the reason they were created and only reason they were never lifted.

They were never lifted because the western powers wanted him out but were smart enough in 1991 not to try it militarily without long term plans. Its is absurd to say that the members of the UN were somehow forced to continue the sanctions on saddam - they did it ebcause it was in their interests.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
The effects of the sanctions however can be laid at his feet. I don't see how it could be otherwise given the fact Iraqi Kurdistan did fine while under the same sanctions.

Iraqi Kurdistan was not in any practical way under the same sanctions. I seriously doubt western countries made any sort of concerted effort to stop smuggling into that region or any other sort of commercial links knowing that under their air umbrella that part of Iraq was out of his rule, which is what the sanctions were meant to do.