Illusion of freedom and the exercize of power

[Lorizael]

That's not to say that you won't drink a beer anyways, right?

[Lancer]

Absolutely not! I'm giving alot here. A truly selfless act of consumtion.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by GePap
Voting is an expression of political power, however small. It reaffirms the notion that soveringty stems from the ruled, not from the ruler. IN that sense, it does grant the ruled greater political liberty.

This assumes that our elected politicians are our rulers. It's much more complex than that. All sorts of individuals and groups have power to rule in our system. Your idea simplifies things too much.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kidicious


This assumes that our elected politicians are our rulers. It's much more complex than that. All sorts of individuals and groups have power to rule in our system. Your idea simplifies things too much.

Everyone has power. Power to rule (as in to control the monopoly on political violence) is granted to those viewed as legitimate, and in a dmeocratic system, that legitimacy comes from the vote. Private interests may have significant power over individuals, but they do not rule.

[Berzerker]

If I vote my fellow citizens into some form of slavery, does that have anything to do with freedom? Lets face it, most voters care about their own freedom on some issues but they aint much interested in mine. So once the unwashed masses are done giving up the freedoms they dont like you have a democracy where the majority ostensibly rules...the mob rules...

[Sirotnikov]

Well obviously you aren't free when you're part of a system or a larger group, Pekka.

A system is forever governed by rules, because otherwise the society that created it couldn't have existed in the first place.

When you have a society of 2 people, you don't need rules or systems, because you can just agree upon anything among the 2 of you.

3 people or more, and the society needs a 'social contract' and a system to enforce said contract.


Voting is just one of possible means to try and ensure that a system (namely it's chosen governors) remains loyal to the ideas of all its members. Agreeably, voting by itself is not enough, but it is a part of what allows you to be a member in a free society - even if you are yourself not totally free.

Think of Apolyton.
Even if you ignore the "evil undemocratic oppression" of moderators, you still have rules.
You have rules that tell you how and where to post. You have rules defining what your post will look like, what smilies it will contain, where it will appear, and how often can you post (30 seconds apart).

So are you not free?
Well, you're not totally free to do what ever you want.
But you're free within a framework.

[Pekka]

Siro, repeating definitions doesn't get you far

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Pekka
Siro, repeating definitions doesn't get you far

this is the most unconstructive post you've made

[Lancer]

I have no idea about that, but it is the first post of Pekka's that I've read all the way through in a long time.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by GePap


Everyone has power. Power to rule (as in to control the monopoly on political violence) is granted to those viewed as legitimate, and in a dmeocratic system, that legitimacy comes from the vote. Private interests may have significant power over individuals, but they do not rule.

I'm talking about reality, not political idealism. I don't think we are on the same page here.

[Pekka]

Right, and my point about the act of voting not being freedom is also practical and not ideological one.

If someone is going to repeat (yes Siro, you!) that according to wikipedia voting is essential and gives you the power to give your own vote to a candidate that then, if elected, can make changes and thus affecting your life.

So... where does the freedom part kick in? It's not in the act. It's in the real life or it isn't, but it surely isn't in the act of voting, just like justice or truth is not in the act of torture, as seen few hundred years ago in Europe. That's why I gave the example, because it was seen as the act of justice itself and the act of truth. But to make that connection you have to be pretty damn creative, because if the person was found guilty, then he was tortured/killed as punishment. So THAT was the justice part, or following the idea of justice of those times. And the truth part was a paradox, since it was also used as the punishment (torture) but it would often lead to false confession.

I didn't just tell that example for fun. The idea is to separate your automatic thinking pattern where voting is freedom or a huge part of it. It isn't. Don't blame me if your worlds crumble, but it's quite easy to actually realize that the two are not directly connected and many times not even indirectly connected.

I can rationalize communism the same way that freedom has been connected with voting as an essential part of democracy (that equals freedom). I can say that in communist system we are all equal and our basic needs can be taken cared of and my rights can not be taken away by those with more power, because we are all equal and no one can rise to a position where they have so much power that they can take it away from us, our rights that is. I can say all kinds of things, I can say that we are more free in communist system because if we can ensure everyone a basic income that is above the minimum standard of living, which we set high enough so it's actually pretty good, so then we are free to actually live our lives, as how does freedom equal itself if it only means the powerful have freedom to oppress the less powerful.

I can go all day long, rationalizing most systems, maybe even taleban starts to make sense at some point.

But that's not what we want to do, we want to be rational in our thinking in ways that we can separate thinking patterns that gives us these "truths" by default that aren't. It's worrying since some of these "truths" are very easily challenged and can be shown that they aren't directly connected, yet many are blind enough to not be able to get away from the old thinking pattern. That's rather sad.

And this is not an attack against democracy or voting or you. If you're upset about personal attack, then you know to please kill yourself. Life gets harder than this.

[Chemical Ollie]

The right to vote is an essential part of freedom in a structured society. You could, in theory, have a society with total freedom, but no right to vote. That system is called anarchy and doesn't work in practice.

But the right to vote is only a small part of what defines freedom, which some people tend to forget.

[Pekka]

Come on. Repeating that is just saying out loud that you didn't read my posts.

[Chemical Ollie]

If you want people to fully read your posts, make them shorter

[Pekka]

Short is bad.