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Illusion of freedom and the exercize of power

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  • Illusion of freedom and the exercize of power

    So I think we have a problem of sheep mentality when it comes to freedom. People often say, "yeaaah I get to vote". So what? Is that freedom?

    This very act of voting is an example of power being exercized. We often mistakenly take acts as tokens of freedom when it simply hasn't got anything to do with it. How does voting make you free?

    We can vote, so it means there is a system already in place that forces us to make a decision between voting and not voting. Of course you can take the course of rebelling against the idea of voting and denounce the system, but in order for you to do that, the system and the idea of it must be in place, otherwise you couldn't be against it in the first place, thus I challenge the idea of freedom in it.

    It is not freedom to be able to resist it in the first place. It is merely saying that we won't shoot you for having a different opinion on this particular issue. It's not freedom to not be shot or jailed. Neither is being shot or being jailed.

    Freedom would be to be able to live outside the power of this idea of voting where it has no stake in your life.

    We often mistake the act of something as being the concept itself, and that's what I mean by sheep mentality. We are easily controlled. We always function within the framework that has been created by men. I'm not talking about conspiracies, but we can't act outside our knowledge or what we know and thus we can be controlled by the amount of knowledge and options given to us.

    To realize this is the basic key to exercize of power. Today we are controlled by many things. The knowledge of the self is ever changing by the concepts and information given to us by the institutions of power. Those institutions would be the government, schools and so forth but these days it's also more and more businesses with marketing, setting out what is normal and what is abnormal. People want to be normal, so they will normalize themselves, so in the act of normalizing themselves they buy something or behave in a certain "accepted" way.

    It is in the act that makes us fools for thinking the solution lies in. For centuries the European countries used to torture their suspected prisoners for crimes they either commited or didn't commit. It was accepted, that in the process of finding the truth, we can torture prisoners. So, this defines the very act of torture as the act of finding the truth, where as the punishment for the crime coudl also be torture. So torture was the process as well as the punishment later on, quite paradoxical if you think about it. Courts were very much informed that often innocent ones would plead guilty because they were tortured.

    One of the greater acts of justice was when a prisoner was tortured to death. You'd torture them, and this process was codified and there were rules and guides how to do it properly for it to be juridicial torture, and at the very end, when the prisoner would cry and ask for mercy... this was the very climax of the whole process. They had just shown the guilty ones remorce and correction of the attitude and everything, this was a pivotal moment, a key to justice. Then you'd either give them mercy and kill them or continue torturing, depending what the sentence was. But the almost theatric like moment was what was wanted, it was in the act itself. But what does it have to do with truth, what does it have to do with justice?

    The same way with freedom, make no mistake about it. Freedom is often mistaken as the ... something human nature urges. Even if we want to install sharia, well, if I'm for sharia and it's the way I want to live my life, and I see these tyrannies who would not allow it, even more so outside forces giving us something different and something we hate, it could be mistaken as pursuing your own freedom to install that sharia by force. Because it's in the act.

    We see people tearing down the statues etc of old dictators or demolishing what reminds them of the old times, and that feels good, but that's not freedom or taking you to it. But we mistake it is some kind of manifestation of the need for it or freedom in action itself.

    But one thing remains the same. Someone is always using power in these situations, and it is the very same entity that tells us we deserve our freedom, no matter what form it takes. And people get excited and ready to what ever it takes, but you never see actually leaders limiting their own powers after the fact. You are always going to be within a system or an ideology, and you can either play by the rules or play against the rules, but the very fact that you're playing means you are being subjected to outside power and the more free you think you are, the less likely you are to be actually free.
    In da butt.
    "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
    THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
    "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

  • #2
    I quit reading after your assertion about voting not being a sign of freedom.
    I'm sorry, Pekka. That's ridiculous.
    The fact is, the people who run your country have a lot to do with your quality of life.
    Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
    "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
    He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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    • #3
      OK so when voting, you are agreeing to the idea and system in place. So what if no one voted? Ok say one person voted?

      It would be a disaster. Democracy failed, nobody used their power, it's all gone to the toilet now.

      Why? What difference did it do actually? We got options A through D, and I could give one point, one point out of millions of points, to one of them. Say A won with 1 point or vote. Even if no votes, ****ing flip a coin, who cares?

      Am I now less free? Are we less free as people because of this? What was the actual point of it all? We don't get to choose our leaders, we get to cast one vote, give a point to one of them. That's not choosing, if I'd choose, I'd get my pick every single time.

      Of course that's impossible, so the "next best thing" is to give points adn see who gets the most. Right? How does this make us more free? I was free when I was born, the society can only limit me, not give me more freedoms. Unless it can give me wings so I can fly or some kind of superpowers, then I'd say I'm more free now.

      And unless I can influence that leader, well, they aren't really projecting what people want. They aren't merely servants of people even if we like ot think that. So what's the point? If no one voted, why would it mean it just all failed? It just means no one gave a ****. Period. That's what they wanted to do, nothing.

      We already have processes and procedures how to handle situations, why do I even need a national leader? What is he/she going to do for me, or what have they done so we couldn't have just done without them?

      I don't need a leader in order for me to be free. No one should interfere with my life in order for me to be more free, and that's what leaders do, they interfere with lives. What is the function that preserves freedom in leaders? That they don't TAKE more power? Because if we had a rogue leader, they'd take the power? So why do we need the guy who isn't going to take more power, that won't enhance the situation, we just don't want the guy who is going to take power, that's very different, there's no protection against that by using a leader who isn't going to kill us all.
      In da butt.
      "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
      THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
      "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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      • #4
        Sloww, then you didn't read why I said voting is no sign of freedom.

        I challenged the idea of WHY voting would be a sign of freedom.

        Give us an example why it is freedom? How does it make us more free? I said that the very act is setting a framework where you must either act in it or decide to not act in it. If you're going to call it ridiculous, you'll have to back it up by giving reasons why it is ridiculous.
        In da butt.
        "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
        THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
        "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

        Comment


        • #5
          There are 2 options.
          Having the right to vote, or not having the right.
          If you don't have the right, in all probability you're living under the rule of a dictator.
          I'm probably wrong, but the memory of a dictatorship supported by people with no desire for a voice concerning their lives, escapes me.
          I can't think of a single country that doesn't desire the vote, and is content to just let military coups decide their fate.

          If there is one, they deserve what they get, and don't get.
          Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
          "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
          He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

          Comment


          • #6
            I wasn't even arguing against voting. I'm arguing, that there is an illusion that the act of voting has something to do with freedom.

            Like I said earlier and you confirmed, by voting or not voting you are already under the power of the system that forces you to make that decision.

            And do note, that comparing to dictators is not a measurement for our freedoms. It is simply saying that there are some bastards ruling countries.

            So what does voting have to do with freedom? Being a murdereous dictator rarely have been a favourite of the people so that they were voted in power to begin with. Meaning, that the process of voting does not exclude the possibility of military coup or other dictatorships in the future.

            I'm saying that it is an illusion to think that the act of voting is related to freedom and it is a very powerful usage of... power to install that kind of thinking, because it means you have to have the power of setting that framework where you have to function to begin with, and if people think it has something to do with freedom, it is all the more powerful.

            Disclaimer: I'm not saying voting is bad. I'm just saying that it's an act that doesn't have much to do with actual freedom. It's like saying that by voting in American Idol you are exercizing your freedom to choose your favourite. By doing that you are giving a point but it doesn't relate to freedom. And even though American Idol doesn't have the power to change your freedoms or your life, neither does the national leader. You're merely giving a point for ideas or an ideology that suits you the best, you aren't choosing. So you may either get it or not. And even then, how does that relate to freedom? It's just voting.

            It's got little to do with actual freedom, just like torture has very little to do with truth and/or justice. If I consume products, I'm directly and immidiately voting for a product and therefore against the competitors. Is that freedom? No, because I can always turn back and at the same time buy the other products. Even even then, is it freedom? I still have limited amount of products I can choose from, or choose not to buy anything. So we get a bunch of products in front of us, how does me buying one of them relate to freedom?
            Last edited by Pekka; August 19, 2007, 10:51.
            In da butt.
            "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
            THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
            "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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            • #7
              I wasn't even arguing against voting. I'm arguing, that there is an illusion that the act of voting has something to do with freedom.
              I understand what you're saying and I disagree.
              The right to vote is only available to a country that has something to do with freedom.

              It's fine. You disagree, and that's cool.
              Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
              "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
              He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

              Comment


              • #8
                I don't necessarily disagree with what you just said.

                Countries that don't have the right of voting in them are usually if not always even less free than our societies. I agree with this, I think it is a fact.

                It's not exactly more free if you can't vote, I mean that the voting doesn't exist. As I pointed out earlier, it is already usage of power if you have installed a system of voting so you are forced to play that game even if you choose to be against it, you're still playing the game.

                So if you don't have voting, would that be more free? Well, no. Not exactly.

                But we could have forced freedom. I'm not saying it's a good idea, definitely not doable, but even the idea might be bad.

                In that scenarion, we wouldn't have a leader, we would only have institutions of power that makes sure our freedoms are not limited. This doesn't mean abolishing police and the army, naturally these are needed. But the amount of power invested in politicians? Radically reduced. Bureaucracy down.

                Even this isn't the sign of freedom IMO, but you have less constricting elements in the society. Now, we could pursue this even with dictatorship. A dictator who refuses to limit our freedoms and would on the contrary just be interested in freedom. Not just "a fair dictator" but a dictator who is only interested in demolishing the institutions along wiht preserving maximum amount of freedom for its citizens.

                We'd more likely be more free then. However, of course it doesn't work like that, that's not the point.

                The point is to separate the concept of freedom from the act of voting.
                In da butt.
                "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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                • #9
                  Pekka, Sloww isn't ready to be set free. He's hopelessly inured to the system.
                  Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
                  "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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                  • #10
                    Let me know how that works out for you, Lori.
                    Vassal system vs. the ability to vote. Enjoy your serfhood.
                    Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                    "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                    He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I don't think so, he is just arguing that voting is an essential part of our free societies, or at least the ones that are more free than others.

                      I a way I'm confusing the issue since I agree that we live in more free societies than those with no voting. But I don't think it's BECAUSE of voting necessarily. Nor do I think we are that much more free. In a sense, we do live in the same world, so the available knowledge is the same, the difference is how easy it is to access that information. Regardless of that, what I think Sloww is saying is that voting is a big part of democratic process and so far democracies seems to be more free than other models. And I agree.

                      However, I do not equal freedom with democracy. I think it enables more opportunities for freedom, as free flow of ideas is essential. So we can obtain more knowledge. However, it also presents a danger where we think we are free and have most answers, thus we don't see the problems of our own model as being one of subtle power and of great control.

                      Of course we are going to face a lot of difficult questions like what is freedom, how do you measure it and so forth. Maybe impossible questions to answer. We know of different degrees of freedom though. We know we are less free after we're born, because virtual laws and rules are enforced upon us. Some of it is to ensure basic freedom of others (we should not beat up other people etc), but outside those basic freedom issues we have also laws and rules of control. I disagree with every single bit of them.

                      Then again, obviously I mean a different kind of freedom, more comprehensive, but would it be useful, that's another question. I can never be militant about my beliefs of freedom. I'm in the minority anyway, if I had my ways, most people would be miserable. We wouldn't have any of these hot political topics on TV, so ... what would we talk about? Nothing interesting going on really after that.

                      I am arguing that most people need, want and welcome some kind of control even over themselves. People like to be lead. Even in a very individualist society, there is always a demand for leadership. So.... it doesn't suit me much, but others like it so what can I do... I can't force people to dump elements of control. I can't force people to have an educated opinion on issues, as in read about it rather than adopt the opinion of someone you like etc.

                      But I think it should be the priority of any education system within the system to explain the system itself. Explain and teach about it from many angles, including teaching about the institutions of power and how we reflect things, so they don't become invisible. So that we can recognize them so we can have even more educated opinions, so we can have deeper opinions of ourselves based on that, so we can challenge it and debate it. When it becomes invisible, which often happens in more free societies, it also numbs the citizens and makes them blind of itself.
                      In da butt.
                      "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                      THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                      "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Pekka

                        We'd more likely be more free then. However, of course it doesn't work like that, that's not the point.

                        The point is to separate the concept of freedom from the act of voting.
                        Voting is an expression of political power, however small. It reaffirms the notion that soveringty stems from the ruled, not from the ruler. IN that sense, it does grant the ruled greater political liberty.

                        Does political liberty equal freedom? From what you write, I assume you are a liberterian, and thus from you viewpoint, probably not, as political power can and usually is used to create systems, systems which invariably restrict individuals in some way, which is a limit on "freedom."
                        If you don't like reality, change it! me
                        "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                        "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                        "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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                        • #13
                          GePap, yeah, pretty close to what I think. And at the same note, Libertarianism is also an ideology and a system, so it's not really free either.

                          I think there's degrees of crap. Some oppressive countries are crappier than mine, but that doesn't say anything more about my country.

                          Also, I just disagree that the ACT of voting is some kind of manifestation of freedom. It can lead to greated freedom. But it can also lead to greater oppression. There is no guarantee that it gives us more freedoms as an end result, and we can't vote who ever we want. There's a process of selecting candidates. What if I disagree with all of those candidates, which I often do? My choice is then to vote so that the least favourite of mine would lose. This is again just a degree of crap, not freedom in itself or any guarantee that we'll have freedom as a result.

                          How much of an impact it has on freedom, I mean how great of an affect it has on it. How much does it weigh on the odds that we're going to have more of it? Difficult to answer, we could say that look at the countries who can vote, they're usually more free.

                          Well, those countries are often wealthier as well. CHeck out China, the communist party will see challenge of their power grab as there starts to be more wealth. Money is more of an issue when it comes to have more opportunities. You rarely see poor people selected as the national leaders, because the amount of visibility is directly in relation to how much money you have.

                          So I'm not sure voting gives us more candidates either. Wealth often does, because it's difficult to rule alone when others have the same kind of power as well. But if you're the only one with power, well, you aren't going to be realistically challenged, even if you get to vote.
                          In da butt.
                          "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                          THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                          "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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                          • #14
                            Actually, I'm just paraphrasing a line from the Matrix that seemed kind of fitting.
                            Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
                            "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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                            • #15
                              Pekka, could you condense your ideas a bit? White a post, but before you hit 'submit', clean it down to maybe 50 words.

                              Do this, and I will drink a beer in your honor.
                              Long time member @ Apolyton
                              Civilization player since the dawn of time

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