French Socialism

[OzzyKP]

If she was a high school student she would have.

[Kataphraktoi]

English speaking countries have endured years of right wing propaganda that has resulted in the erosion of their welfare states

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi

That is very true actually. Laughing about it without refuting it just makes you look stupid.

[Kataphraktoi]

Because we all know how beneficial socialism is for the economy

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well some socialist policies (like a progressive income tax, anti-trust laws, and a base level of welfare for the poor) is very beneficial for the economy.

Full out capitalism and full out socialism aren't going to be that great for the economy in the long run, so a good balance should be found.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Arrian
The spambot "steluta" could've written a better article...

-Arrian

Perhaps s/he was making some kind of sophisticated point about the crassness of unrestrained capitalism?

Nah, probably just another spambot.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Master Zen
Damn, I'm late for the party.

Don't know what's more ridiculous. The article... or Agathon's defense of it.

What's sad is that as a socialdemocrat myself, I find it appaling that people use such lame arguments to defend the welfare state and the French economy. It's quite easy to see that the problems of the French economy (and there are many) are not exclusively due to the welfare state, something that most anglos and right-wingers simply fail to fathom because it's so easy to b*tch about a system by pointing out the shortcomings of a certain country. But justifying the superiority of a system on account of tourism and expats... stupid to say the least.

Fact: the French have a much greater standard of living than most of the anti-French crowd would like to admit (some noteworthy publication recently considered it the best country to live in). And yes, much of it is due to the little things: climate, culture, food, etc. But ultimately that's really not a reflection of a better system: climate alone is sheer geography and it seems more than obvious to anyone with a working neuron that Brits buy houses in France and other Mediterranean countries (Spain and Croatia come to mind) because the climate SUCKS in the UK.

I'd really like Agathon explain why more Americans buy houses in Mexico than in Canada and why American tourists go south rather than north considering it's quite obvious which of the two has the superior economy and superior social services and superior everything... except food, culture and climate.

I don't get it. You agree with me, but I am wrong.

Where did I say that weather wasn't a factor. I simply claimed it wasn't the only factor.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Well some socialist policies (like a progressive income tax, anti-trust laws, and a base level of welfare for the poor) is very beneficial for the economy.

Full out capitalism and full out socialism aren't going to be that great for the economy in the long run, so a good balance should be found.

Indeed.

But you don't expect Rightie to understand that do you?

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Agathon


I don't get it. You agree with me, but I am wrong.

Where did I say that weather wasn't a factor. I simply claimed it wasn't the only factor.

One of the major premises of the article is that France is so much better than the UK because Brits go buy houses in France and yet Frenchmen don't buy houses in Britain. That's a BS argument. Most of the rest of the article is just nationalist nonsense and tidbits about a high standard of living. But it's not that standard of living which is what is making Brits move to France (and you should note that these are mostly second homes, Brits are not packing their bags and their lives to move to France) anymore than it is standard of living which makes Americans go to Mexico. In short, the article is stupid not because the argument is wrong but because the evidence to support it is. It's basically right... for all the wrong reasons, which is why I would have trusted you to be wise enough not to support it so virulently as you have.

You want a really good defense of the European economy that's high on substance and low on cheap nationalism? Read this:

http://www.mccmedia.com/pipermail/brin-l/Week-of-Mon-20040621/004872.html

I agree with you on the argument that the standard of living is grossly underestimated by the anti-French crowd, and French socialist policies have been unjustly bashed by Brits and Americans. But that's it. The rest of the article's reasonings are fallacious at best and ridiculous at worst. As an example, the part that "no model outside France can solve these problems" just reeks of blind patriotism. Everyone can learn a little about someone else and it would very much be the key to France's biggest problem: labor rigidity which causes unemployment. France would be wise in adopting the labor flexibility of, say, the US while the US would be equally wise in adopting some of France's welfare policies. I've said it many times and I'll say it again: dynamic labor policies and a welfare state are not mutually exclusive. Bashing a European country because of its economic woes and blaming it all on the welfare state is idiotic, ideologically pathetic, and in the end, downright false.

(feel free to laugh Kataphraktoi)

Also note that France's productivity is among the highest in the world because of the extra 5 work hours cut from the week. Fact is that working hours decrease in marginal productivity which means the 8th hour was pretty much unproductive in France and everywhere else. Personally I think it was a brilliant move since most people's working day at full productivity can be done in 6-7 hours or even less. Of course the anti-French crowd will dis it as being lazy. Before the labor change, however, France was NOT among the 2-3 most productive countries in the world and if all the others also cut 5 hours a week from work you'd very much expect a productivity jump from them too.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Ah, the same myopic short sightedness that makes people not realize that American microbrew is some of the best in the world.

Yes, yes it is.

[Master Zen]

People here in Mexico are proud of the beer (with good reason) and are quick to dis US beer because, well, the commercial brands really suck. But whenever I hear that I tell them: "man, you have not tasted the microbrews..."

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Master Zen
People here in Mexico are proud of the beer (with good reason) and are quick to dis US beer because, well, the commercial brands really suck. But whenever I hear that I tell them: "man, you have not tasted the microbrews..."

It's the same with Mexico, I'd imagine. There are far better beers than Dos Equis and Corona but most Americans wouldn't know.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
It's the same with Mexico, I'd imagine. There are far better beers than Dos Equis and Corona but most Americans wouldn't know.

There are many good brands which are actually quite commercial but don't seem to be exported much and are marketed mostly on a regional basis which means some are pretty hard to find even in many cities here. There's really not that many microbreweries here which is a shame.

[Kidlicious]

I've heard just the opposite, that Americans like Mexican beer and that it is made with radiator water.

[aneeshm]

@ Aggie

It doesn't matter if some people (the ones who would prefer not to work) in the rest of the world are jealous - in a global free-market economy, France will be outcompeted.