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  • Pat Tillman fragged?

    AP: New Details on Tillman's Death

    By MARTHA MENDOZA
    The Associated Press
    Friday, July 27, 2007; 1:48 AM

    SAN FRANCISCO -- Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman's forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player's death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.

    "The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described," a doctor who examined Tillman's body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.

    The doctors _ whose names were blacked out _ said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.

    Ultimately, the Pentagon did conduct a criminal investigation, and asked Tillman's comrades whether he was disliked by his men and whether they had any reason to believe he was deliberately killed. The Pentagon eventually ruled that Tillman's death at the hands of his comrades was a friendly-fire accident.

    The medical examiners' suspicions were outlined in 2,300 pages of testimony released to the AP this week by the Defense Department in response to a Freedom of Information Act request.

    Among other information contained in the documents:

    _ In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop "sniveling."

    _ Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments.

    _ The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman's death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn't recall details of his actions.

    _ No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene _ no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.

    The Pentagon and the Bush administration have been criticized in recent months for lying about the circumstances of Tillman's death. The military initially told the public and the Tillman family that he had been killed by enemy fire. Only weeks later did the Pentagon acknowledge he was gunned down by fellow Rangers.

    With questions lingering about how high in the Bush administration the deception reached, Congress is preparing for yet another hearing next week.

    The Pentagon is separately preparing a new round of punishments, including a stinging demotion of retired Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensinger Jr., 60, according to military officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because the punishments under consideration have not been made public.

    In more than four hours of questioning by the Pentagon inspector general's office in December 2006, Kensinger repeatedly contradicted other officers' testimony, and sometimes his own. He said on some 70 occasions that he did not recall something.

    At one point, he said: "You've got me really scared about my brain right now. I'm really having a problem."

    Tillman's mother, Mary Tillman, who has long suggested that her son was deliberately killed by his comrades, said she is still looking for answers and looks forward to the congressional hearings next week.

    "Nothing is going to bring Pat back. It's about justice for Pat and justice for other soldiers. The nation has been deceived," she said.

    The documents show that a doctor who autopsied Tillman's body was suspicious of the three gunshot wounds to the forehead. The doctor said he took the unusual step of calling the Army's Human Resources Command and was rebuffed. He then asked an official at the Army's Criminal Investigation Division if the CID would consider opening a criminal case.

    "He said he talked to his higher headquarters and they had said no," the doctor testified.

    Also according to the documents, investigators pressed officers and soldiers on a question Mrs. Tillman has been asking all along.

    "Have you, at any time since this incident occurred back on April 22, 2004, have you ever received any information even rumor that Cpl. Tillman was killed by anybody within his own unit intentionally?" an investigator asked then-Capt. Richard Scott.

    Scott, and others who were asked, said they were certain the shooting was accidental.

    Investigators also asked soldiers and commanders whether Tillman was disliked, whether anyone was jealous of his celebrity, or if he was considered arrogant. They said Tillman was respected, admired and well-liked.

    The documents also shed new light on Tillman's last moments.

    It has been widely reported by the AP and others that Spc. Bryan O'Neal, who was at Tillman's side as he was killed, told investigators that Tillman was waving his arms shouting "Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" again and again.

    But the latest documents give a different account from a chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman was killed.

    The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."

    ___

    Associated Press reporters Scott Lindlaw in Las Vegas and Lolita C. Baldor in Washington contributed to this story.
    The rumour is that Tillman had become disillusioned with the policies of the Bush/Cheney junta, was planning to meet with prominent leftists including Noam Chomsky when he returned from his tour, and had made extremely lefty comments to his comrades.

    Despite the media image of him as a muscular, patriotic dupe, he was supposed to be quite a bright and thoughtful man.

    I don't think there is any merit in claiming that the government or the army had him whacked, but I can see how other soldiers might have become pissed off with him.

    After the business with that poor Lynch girl and the outright lies told about her, I guess it's not unreasonable to think that there was a cover up here.
    Only feebs vote.

  • #2
    Well they lied through their teeth to prosecute the war against Iraq - this is child's play compared to that...
    Is it me, or is MOBIUS a horrible person?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Agathon
      had made extremely lefty comments to his comrades.
      he was supposed to be quite a bright and thoughtful man.


      Sorry, this does not compute.

      Anyway, people who are rumoured to be leftists get murdered too, you know. I suppose it's a pity, somewhat, but what are you gonna do?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Winston


        he was supposed to be quite a bright and thoughtful man.


        Sorry, this does not compute.

        Anyway, people who are rumoured to be leftists get murdered too, you know. I suppose it's a pity, somewhat, but what are you gonna do?
        You love the smell of napalm in the morning.
        Only feebs vote.

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        • #5
          cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.
          He had a head left, right? I call TOTAL bull****.
          Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
          "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
          He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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          • #6
            I bet there is a video on the web somewhere that shows what 3 M-16 rounds will do at 10 yards. Hell 100 yards.

            Sloww is correct
            "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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            • #7
              Entry would be small. Remember, an M-16 basically fires a .22 round, and does so at a high speed. Fore-head would be intact, but I'm not saying what the back of the head looked like.
              Founder of The Glory of War, CHAMPIONS OF APOLYTON!!!
              '92 & '96 Perot, '00 & '04 Bush, '08 & '12 Obama, '16 Clinton, '20 Biden, '24 Harris

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              • #8
                It tumbles, not spins. An M16 is worthless at great ranges, but if you get hit in the shoulder, it may rip your arm off.
                Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

                Comment


                • #9
                  I wouldn't think a tumbling bullet would have any kind of accuracy and the M-16 is supposed to an accurate weapon.
                  Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                  • #10
                    It doesn't at long ranges, but you are not usually shooting at those ranges. Part of the whole WWI/WWII think were the rifles would be accurate at 3000 yards, but what is the point if your fighting in cities?
                    "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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                    • #11
                      Actually the three rounds just indicate that the M16 was set to that (three round burst is a standard setting on the selector switch). I need to know how closely grouped the rounds were. I talked to Colt at one time due to something I was researching, and found out that the factory approved accuracy with an M16 was five plus inches at fifty yards. That is from Colt, and is the production standard.

                      To put all three rounds into the forehead would indicate a range definitely under one hundred yards, very probably under fifty yards. But if someone pulled a trigger once, with the gun pointed in Tillman's direction, an accidental discharge could result in exactly what is described. Plus the individual might well be within fifty yards if he is part of Tillman's unit.

                      The three rounds, if grouped sufficiently close, let's say at ten yards, will have much more the affect of a single round - blowing a sizable hole in the back of the skull, but nothing let's say equivalent to the effect of eating a shotgun barrel (I've seen a photo of that from a law enforcement friend - even in B&W it is gruesome). Remember at that range there is no tumble to the rounds prior to entry, and their velocity is sufficient to punch through both sides of the skull. In fact they may not deform very much depending. As these are military ball, you also will not get the added size to the exit would that the deformed mushroom shape of a hunting bullet. His brain will still be jelly, and the back of his head will be really nasty but the skull may be suffiently intact to hold its shape.

                      There will be NOTHING to indicate whether it was an accidentaly discharge or murder unless there are powder burns on the skin (i.e. point blank and pointed at him) - something I've seen no indications of since I would assume even the army would see that as fishy. Plus the evidence is so stale - did they even recover the bullets to determine who fired the fatal rounds? We probably will never know the answer.
                      The worst form of insubordination is being right - Keith D., marine veteran. A dictator will starve to the last civilian - self-quoted
                      And on the eigth day, God realized it was Monday, and created caffeine. And behold, it was very good. - self-quoted
                      Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
                      Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry… I wish it were otherwise.

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                      • #12
                        For teh record, I think it's BS. There's too much assertion of deliberate nastiness on the part of teh Bush Admin. It's silly, cuz the reality is horrible enough. Is it really necessary for it to be true that Cheney masturbates over the corpses of kittens he strangled himself for us to understand there are very bad people in charge of our empire?
                        Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mr. Harley

                          There will be NOTHING to indicate whether it was an accidentaly discharge or murder unless there are powder burns on the skin (i.e. point blank and pointed at him) - something I've seen no indications of since I would assume even the army would see that as fishy.
                          According to former Republican congressman Curt Weldon, Pat Tillman's uniform was deliberately destroyed by burning. A good reason to do that would be to get rid of any powder burns present on the uniform.



                          Encouraging answers from Rep. Curt Weldon's Town Hall Meeting when he's asked questions by 9/11 activists, Dave Slesinger and Jon Gold. Interesting perspe
                          Last edited by Slaughtermeyer; July 28, 2007, 08:23.
                          Click here and here to find out how close the George Washington Bridge came to being blown up on 9/11 and why all evidence against those terrorists was classified. Click here to see the influence of Neocon Zionists in the USA and how they benefitted from 9/11. Remember the USS Liberty and the Lavon Affair.

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                          • #14
                            Powder burns on his clothes would be in indication he'd been firing a weapon. Imagine, an Army ranger firing a gun. Powder burns on his face might be an indication he'd been shot point blank, depending on the pattern.
                            Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                            • #15
                              A good reason to do that would be to get rid of any powder burns present on the uniform.
                              Another good reason would be so you don't have a to lug a blood soaked uniform around for no apparent reason. Did you expect them to launder it and send it back to his parents?

                              You do realize it was probably cut to shreads by medical types soon after the event anyways when inspecting the body, right?
                              "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

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