A Question of Motives - Al Qaeda

[Sirotnikov]

I see your point.

I would like to point out regarding Likud though, that they did not moderate to any extent.


Sharon moderated. So did olmert and tzipi livni.

Bibi did not visibly moderate.

The rest of the people are apes and monkeys and their political world view is that of a (somewhat racist) potato.

The Likud constituency did not moderate at all. They merely moved to other parties.

[lord of the mark]

What is the out of power Likud Ramo speaks of? Likud was formed very shortly before Likud took power, which was way back in 1977.

I think, perhaps Ramo means that Likud since 1977 was more moderate than Herut. In which case that has less to do with coming into power, than with the merger that formed Likud, and which Sharon had some role in, and which made Likud a broader party than Herut had been.

it would be the equivalent of Hamas merging with other anti-Fatah groups, including independents, BEFORE taking power. An interesting scenario, but not what happened in 2005-2006.

In fact Id say even Herut of the 1950s isnt really comparable to Hamas, as Herut, despite its discontent with the Mapai dominated state, accepted the states monopoly on the use of force, and accepted that it had to live with the Mapais relative restraint in relations with the Arabs. To make it comparable, youd have to have a Ben Gurion who failed to disarm Herut, and then when the Arab states refused to recognize Israel, and put forth negotiating positions (Like withdrawl to the 1947 partition lines) that were clearly unacceptable, if Ben Gurion had declared a revolt, and winked at terrorist acts by Herut against neighboring states, from Israeli soil. And then, when Ben Gurion passed from the scene, a successor (Levi Eshkol works) found himself too weak to to control Herut, which managed then, never having disarmed, won an election against corrupt (no alt history there) Mapai.


I would suggest that in those circumstance, there would be no moderate Likud. Herut would be more extreme than it had ever been - it would be unrecognizable as part of Jabotinskys visions, and would more resemble Kach (the party of Meir Kahanes followers). And indeed, that is more or less what Hamas looks like.

[Sirotnikov]

I think that Ramo speaks about Sharon reforming his views on Eretz Israel Ha-Shlema and the settlement foundation.

[Berzerker]

The Bushies and Repubs were wrong when they argued confronting AQ via policing and intel was a pre-9/11 mindset. The answer was war - to invade the Middle East, fight them over there instead of over here. That just drives AQ recruitment, Muslims who wouldn't have anything to do with AQ ideologically are drawn in by the "expel the infidels" appeal for help. Its how we helped generate resistance to the Russians moving into Afghanistan. Carter was smarter than 2 Bush' and a Clinton, he kept us out of quagmires while inducing a Russian invasion of Afghanistan (and their downfall) while they got us into this mess.

We should not have invaded Afghanistan, we should have approached the Taliban for help and regardless of diplomatic results, we should have waited until we knew where AQ was and how to get them. But now that they're in Pakistan, all we can do is leave the Middle East and wait for AQ to leave its safe harbor to launch attacks on the west. If we aint gonna invade Pakistan, its pointless to give AQ a recruitment tool.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Berzerker
The Bushies and Repubs were wrong when they argued confronting AQ via policing and intel was a pre-9/11 mindset. The answer was war - to invade the Middle East, fight them over there instead of over here. That just drives AQ recruitment, Muslims who wouldn't have anything to do with AQ ideologically are drawn in by the "expel the infidels" appeal for help. Its how we helped generate resistance to the Russians moving into Afghanistan. Carter was smarter than 2 Bush' and a Clinton, he kept us out of quagmires while inducing a Russian invasion of Afghanistan (and their downfall) while they got us into this mess.

We should not have invaded Afghanistan, we should have approached the Taliban for help and regardless of diplomatic results, we should have waited until we knew where AQ was and how to get them. But now that they're in Pakistan, all we can do is leave the Middle East and wait for AQ to leave its safe harbor to launch attacks on the west. If we aint gonna invade Pakistan, its pointless to give AQ a recruitment tool.

It seems the latest intel reports that junior AQ officials are defecting in droves. They just can't seem to stomach the danger and the violence.

As far as recruiting goes...AQ would have experienced a bubble no matter what. After 9/11 they were on top of their recruiting game with the "look what we did" mentality. It seems that those recdruits when faed with the reality of dying for AQ's cause are beginning to break. Interesting development for the libs to spin into more lies.

As far as taliking to the Taliban after 9/11 I will respectfully say you have lost your mind and leave it at that.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
I think that Ramo speaks about Sharon reforming his views on Eretz Israel Ha-Shlema and the settlement foundation.

Sharon had been in the govt for over 5 years after 1977, than out of the govt, than in and out as govts alternated till he finally became PM 24 years after entering the cabinet. Im not sure quite what the parallel is for Hamas.

Or it could be that Ramo simply doesnt remember the history of Likud, let along of Gahal, Herut, Shlomzion, and the Revisionist Movement.

Or perhaps we should review the history of the Israeli/Zionist left, or would that constitute torture?

[Berzerker]

As far as taliking to the Taliban after 9/11 I will respectfully say you have lost your mind and leave it at that.

We were talking to them before 9/11...or they were trying to talk to us.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Berzerker


We were talking to them before 9/11...or they were trying to talk to us.

Yes...about stopping opium production ...to which they said "no"

about stopping the destruction of the Statues...to which they said "no"

about not harboring AQ...to which they said "no"

about the rights of women...to which they said "no"

about regional stability...to which they merely laughed.


Yeah...we were talking to them.

Sometimes there is a clear reson for military intervention. The Taliban controlled Afghanistan is the clearest example of it since the end of WWII.

[Ramo]

What is the out of power Likud Ramo speaks of?

Siro's right. I was thinking of Sharon's move to the center. I was not creating a broad analogy between the development of Hamas and Likud. Obviously there have been, and will be, substantial differences.

It's worth pointing out, though, that Likud in the interregnum has generally been more extremist than in power. Begin of the Irgun made peace with Sadat. Even Bibi at least nominally came over to Oslo after vociferously opposing it during Rabin's tenure. Maybe I'm wrong in some of the specifics; my knowledge of Israeli political history is pretty limited. Feel free to enlighten me.

But getting back to my point, it's a tendency, not necessarily of a partisan constituency, but its leadership to moderate once in power. Obviously if the center represents an Islamist anti-peace stance, you're not going to get much motion.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by PLATO



It seems the latest intel reports that junior AQ officials are defecting in droves. They just can't seem to stomach the danger and the violence.

Would this be the same "intel" that spoke of Saddams WMD's?

American "intel" isn't worth the toilet paper it is written on.

[Arrian]

Got a point there.

-Arrian

[Wezil]

The statement seems intended to bolster support among Americans (hence, doesn't matter if it is true).

[Agathon]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


The majority of Pashtuns in Afghanistan were happy to live such lives, and they non-Pashtuns and anti-Taliban Pashtuns were not able to push them out.

That's fair enough. I imagine Osama might have a potential sale to the Kalahari bushmen or the Pygmies of the Ituri Forest.

I don't think it will be popular in Cairo.

[fed1943]

The jokes about American intel may be unfair.

After all, who knows what American intel said? Just the President
and not many more.

And the news just came from the last ones, as it's natural.

Best regards,

[Wezil]

Originally posted by fed1943
The jokes about American intel may be unfair.

After all, who knows what American intel said? Just the President
and not many more.

And the news just came from the last ones, as it's natural.

Best regards,

Um, I wasn't joking.

I give zero credence to any US claims.