A Question of Motives - Al Qaeda

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


Most Christian fundies I've encountered just knock on my door or blather on in some random encounter about whether I've been reborn or not. I've yet to meet one who tells me to wear a beard and keep my woman in her place, or who decides to blow my ass up or saw my head off because he thinks I may not agree with his world view.

I've yet to meet a Muslim like that.

[GePap]

While Iran, by itself, is no threat to our democracies, a unified moslem world would be.

Iranis led by a madman who appears to believe that the end of the world is coming and who is committed to producing nuclear weapons within a few years. Why does the left refuse to take him at his word, ie that he wants to kill us all? Seems to me that I've seen the politics of appeasement before. Luckily it was a pre-nuclear age.

You expect serious commentary when this is what you write?!?

The first line sounds nothing more than religious bigotry, while the paragraph seems to indicate nothing but ignorance about the structure of the Islamic Republic's government structure.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by SpencerH
Iran isnt a real military threat to us. That fact doesnt change the correctness of my statement one iota.
Iran is the chief fomenter of hatred against the west. It supports terrorist acts against us by action and word that kill our citizens and more importantly (to some extent) alter how we conduct our lives as individuals and as nations. How many of the bleeding hearts here have whined about the Patriot Act and intelligence surveillance programs? Would those even have been an issue without Iranian (and other) support for moslem terrorists.

While Iran, by itself, is no threat to our democracies, a unified moslem world would be.

Iranis led by a madman who appears to believe that the end of the world is coming and who is committed to producing nuclear weapons within a few years. Why does the left refuse to take him at his word, ie that he wants to kill us all? Seems to me that I've seen the politics of appeasement before. Luckily it was a pre-nuclear age.

I really don't get the American obsession with Iran. There is zero possibility of Iran unifying the Muslim world.

The greatest threats Iran poses are to its own citizens, given that the regime's primary motive is to stay in power despite its unpopularity at home, and to Israel and Sunni regimes through its terrorist proxies, motivated by its desire to reclaim Persia's "rightful" influence as political and moral guiding force in the Middle East. The only place Americans have in this picture is in Iraq, a Shia state that they see as firmly within their sphere of influence.

Their quest for nukes plays to both of these aims - they've seen two of their neighbours preemptively invaded, and feel that nukes would help them protect power at home, as well as to bolster its influence vis-a-vis Saudi Arabia and Egypt. I highly, highly doubt it has anything to do with this belief that "the end of the world is coming."

[Dr Strangelove]

I think al-Qaeda's most immediate goals are to re-take Afghanistan, drive US and Euroopean troops and influence out of the Middle East, supplant the current government of Sauid Arabia with a Sunni version of an Islamic republic and to eradicate Israel. If they acheived the first three goals I'm pretty sure they'd still work towards the fourth one. If they achieved all four goals would they pursue the goal of converting the world to Islam with all means possible, even violence? Possibly, but I think we'll never really know because they'll never achieve the first four.

[Sirotnikov]

I really don't get the American obsession with Iran. There is zero possibility of Iran unifying the Muslim world.

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168367

It is already involved in Lebanon, Iraq, The Palestinian Territories and Syria.

[LordShiva]

That's hardly the same as unifying the Muslim world.

Of course it's a threat, and does bad stuff, but to paint it as the greatest threat since the Soviet Union gives it too much credit.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168367

It is already involved in Lebanon, Iraq, The Palestinian Territories and Syria.

All of which are in Iran's backyard compared to, say, Indonesia (the biggest Muslim country). The point being, I suppose, that unifying the Muslim word is no prerequisite for Iran being either powerful or troublesome.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168367

It is already involved in Lebanon, Iraq, The Palestinian Territories and Syria.

So is Egypt, so is KSA, so is the UK, Russia, France, the US, China......

Large states with regional interests will get involved in a lot of areas.

[Sirotnikov]

The first line sounds nothing more than religious bigotry, while the paragraph seems to indicate nothing but ignorance about the structure of the Islamic Republic's government structure.

Your first line sounds nothing more than ignoring the politics and beliefs of leading preachers of revivalist Islam.

Your second claim implies nothing but ignorance regarding the political groups in Iran, and Ahmenidijad's affiliation with the messianic extemist school of Mohammad Mesbah Yazdi, and his belief in the imminent return of the Mahdi.

[Agathon]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Question of Motives - Al Qaeda

Originally posted by SpencerH

Some are, some arent.

Enough aren't to make it not feasible.

Some will, some wont.

Enough aren't to make it not feasible.

I already gave an alternative. My hope is that that we present a unified voice to the moslem extremists that convinces them that we will take severe action. It's time to call a spade a spade. Any moslem terrorist activities should be traced back to their originating country and we should exact a severe price by all means available to us.

You sound like a guy who is going to write a stern letter to these terrorists.

This has been tried before under Reagan, and it doesn't work.

You cannot ever beat the Muslims in their own countries. Equally, they cannot beat you in yours.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by GePap
So is Egypt, so is KSA, so is the UK, Russia, France, the US, China......

Large states with regional interests will get involved in a lot of areas.

Yes, we see Egypt, the UK, and France contributing to the political turmoil in Lebanon, destabilizing the territories by pouring in weapons and terrorist funds, and destabilizing Iraq by increasing religious tension.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

Your first line sounds nothing more than ignoring the politics and beliefs of leading preachers of revivalist Islam.

I know all about their beliefs. I also know all about their standing in the general muslim world, and of their actual abilities.

Your second claim implies nothing but ignorance regarding the political groups in Iran, and Ahmenidijad's affiliation with the messianic extemist school of Mohammad Mesbah Yazdi, and his belief in the imminent return of the Mahdi.

All of which is irrelevant given that Ahmanidijad is not the ruler of Iran, and that he will likely not survive the next election cycle, because, WOW, there are popular elections in Iran....

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by GePap
I know all about their beliefs. I also know all about their standing in the general muslim world, and of their actual abilities.

I seriously believe then you could prove very useful for the entire western world's intelligence organizations and foreign relations offices.

Do explain what is the exact standing of the radical Islamists in the Islamic world, and what are their abilities.

Please also refer to the Hamas victory in the PA, the increase in Islamic power in Egypt, the threat by revivalist radicals on the regimes in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Lebanon and Iraq.

All of which is irrelevant given that Ahmanidijad is not the ruler of Iran, and that he will likely not survive the next election cycle, because, WOW, there are popular elections in Iran....

All he needs is Yazdi's following gaining strength in governmental bodies. Dear leader Khamnhai is not all-powerful.

Also a group of like-minded generals who would push the button would do good to his second-coming-of-the-mahdi view of the world.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov


I seriously believe then you could prove very useful for the entire western world's intelligence organizations and foreign relations offices.

Do explain what is the exact standing of the radical Islamists in the Islamic world, and what are their abilities.

Please also refer to the Hamas victory in the PA, the increase in Islamic power in Egypt, the threat by revivalist radicals on the regimes in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Lebanon and Iraq.

Fine:
The growth of Islamic policies in the muslim world is a result of the failure of the current political leaders of those states.

Hamas beat out the PA because Hamas earned a reputaion of not being corrupt, unlike the highly corrupt PA, and because the PA did not show any long term gain to their policy, at least not gains that the Palestinian people could feel and see for themselves. This has undermined the PA greatly.

In Egypt and Pakistan you have corrupt authoritarian regimes whose economic policies have failed to stem countless ills, and have failed to provide many basic services. The masses need something to believ in, and given that Western democracies are for a large part friends of the corrupt regimes that control them, the route of Islam as an uncorrupted alternative looms large.

KSA is a absolute monarchy allied to Sunni fundamentalism. No duh there are fundamentalists there.

Lebanon is too complicated to put on this list, as is Iraq.

All he needs is Yazdi's following gaining strength in governmental bodies. Dear leader Khamnhai is not all-powerful.

Also a group of like-minded generals who would push the button would do good to his second-coming-of-the-mahdi view of the world.

Which are just hypotheticals you are making up. Elections are a given, and the power of the hardliners as opposed to simply conservative forces in Iran is suffereing because of the poor economic stewardship of this current government.

[LordShiva]

The Islamist threat in Pakistan is highly exaggerated in the Western media.