A Question of Motives - Al Qaeda

[Berzerker]

I keep hearing that criticism of Bush and talk about withdrawal scenarios from Iraq reinvigorates or encourages Al Qaeda. Leaving aside how the Bushies will eventually announce their withdrawal plan from Iraq without encouraging Al Qaeda what does this say about Al Qaeda? Is that their goal? To get us to leave Iraq? Is that true for Afghanistan as well? If we leave the Middle East does our war on terror end or does Al Qaeda continue efforts to attack us here after we've gone?

[SlowwHand]

We weren't in Iraq 9/11/2001.

[Whoha]

I actually don't think that gift wrapping the middle east up and handing it to bin laden will make him not want to attack us.

[Berzerker]

I actually don't think that gift wrapping the middle east up and handing it to bin laden will make him not want to attack us.

Was it gift wrapped for him before the first or second Gulf War? Seriously, these guys were off in hilly Afghanistan climbing jungle gyms, not conquering the Middle East. If anything, our invasions of the Middle East helps Al Qaeda recruitment, not the lack of infidels on holy lands.

We weren't in Iraq 9/11/2001.

We've been there since the first Gulf War, and in Saudi Arabia...

[LordShiva]

I think America should stay in Iraq, but don't think Iraq has anything to do with Al Qaeda. I think the Bush administration knows that.

[GePap]

Re: A Question of Motives - Al Qaeda

Originally posted by Berzerker
I keep hearing that criticism of Bush and talk about withdrawal scenarios from Iraq reinvigorates or encourages Al Qaeda. Leaving aside how the Bushies will eventually announce their withdrawal plan from Iraq without encouraging Al Qaeda what does this say about Al Qaeda? Is that their goal? To get us to leave Iraq? Is that true for Afghanistan as well? If we leave the Middle East does our war on terror end or does Al Qaeda continue efforts to attack us here after we've gone?

Al Qaeda wants to use the rally cry of infidels in Muslim lands to drive their recruiting, and of course a US withdrawal from Iraq would be seen by AQ itself and some sympathizers as a huge "victory." In the chaos that would insue in Iraq post a US departure (which I still support), AQ might be able to live for a few years, but in the end, Iraq would sort itself out, however bloodily, and given its central location and resource wealth, it would not remain a failed state like Afghanistan and Somalia. At that moment, AQ in Iraq would meet the same fate as AQ in Egypt and KSA. The fact is most iraqis don't support AQ's aims, and once the secterian issues in Iraq got sorted out, by peace or ethnic cleasing and mass population reshuffling, AQ would be too weak to survive there.

[Berzerker]

But why would AQ hang around Iraq if we left? Would they become entangled in the civil war, take the sides of the Sunnis? Or would they go back to Afghanistan and their "caliphate"

[SpencerH]

Re: Re: A Question of Motives - Al Qaeda

Originally posted by GePap


Al Qaeda wants to use the rally cry of infidels in Muslim lands to drive their recruiting, and of course a US withdrawal from Iraq would be seen by AQ itself and some sympathizers as a huge "victory." In the chaos that would insue in Iraq post a US departure (which I still support), AQ might be able to live for a few years, but in the end, Iraq would sort itself out, however bloodily, and given its central location and resource wealth, it would not remain a failed state like Afghanistan and Somalia. At that moment, AQ in Iraq would meet the same fate as AQ in Egypt and KSA. The fact is most iraqis don't support AQ's aims, and once the secterian issues in Iraq got sorted out, by peace or ethnic cleasing and mass population reshuffling, AQ would be too weak to survive there.

I love this so called "logic" of the left. It excludes the fact that Iran, the greatest threat to democracy since nazi germany, even exists. We have to make it crystal clear to the "new persians" that we are not weak, that we will not back down, and that if push comes to shove that they will glow like Hiroshima and Nagasaki, no matter how repugnant that is to us.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Berzerker


Was it gift wrapped for him before the first or second Gulf War? Seriously, these guys were off in hilly Afghanistan climbing jungle gyms, not conquering the Middle East.

Why do he or his followers want to have the middle east? To set up a Republican form of government with equality and rights for all?

If anything, our invasions of the Middle East helps Al Qaeda recruitment, not the lack of infidels on holy lands.

AQ will shrink if we show the kind of craven weakness you want us to?

But why would AQ hang around Iraq if we left? Would they become entangled in the civil war, take the sides of the Sunnis? Or would they go back to Afghanistan and their "caliphate"

I'm fairly certain that the Koran doesn't limit the Caliphate to the Pashtun tribal areas in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

An "off topic" question, but do you think that them coming over here and killing 3000 Americans is ok, and that nothing should be done about it? If you do, can you be the first one in that line?

[Berzerker]

I love this so called "logic" of the left. It excludes the fact that Iran, the greatest threat to democracy since nazi germany, even exists.

The last time Iran had democratic elections was the early 50s, and the US overthrew that govt and put the Shah on the throne. They know all about our love for democracy.

Why do he or his followers want to have the middle east?

I dont know, I dont even know that they want the Middle East. They want the infidels off holy Muslim lands, that much is clear. Some of them talk about everyone becoming Muslim, I take them as seriously as any religious zealot with a cult following.

To set up a Republican form of government with equality and rights for all?

I'd love to know where this utopia exists.

AQ will shrink if we show the kind of craven weakness you want us to?

AQ will shrink if there are no more infidels occupying the Middle East. My "craven weakness" would have prevented 9/11, not the bravery and strength of the amoral idiots who got us stuck in Iraq.

I'm fairly certain that the Koran doesn't limit the Caliphate to the Pashtun tribal areas in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Reality did limit the "Caliphate"... The reality that most Muslims wont support them.

An "off topic" question, but do you think that them coming over here and killing 3000 Americans is ok, and that nothing should be done about it? If you do, can you be the first one in that line?

Invade Iraq to do something about 9/11? Brilliant! I supported getting AQ, and I did not support letting AQ get away to Pakistan because we had to invade Iraq. But since we aren't going to go after these people in Pakistan, all we can do is drive AQ recruitment. As for the tone of your question, FU jackass.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Berzerker
I dont know, I dont even know that they want the Middle East. They want the infidels off holy Muslim lands, that much is clear. Some of them talk about everyone becoming Muslim, I take them as seriously as any religious zealot with a cult following.

I don't know either, so I take them at their word.

I'd love to know where this utopia exists.

I didn't say that it does, I merely asked you if that was his goal.

AQ will shrink if there are no more infidels occupying the Middle East. My "craven weakness" would have prevented 9/11, not the bravery and strength of the amoral idiots who got us stuck in Iraq.

Great, got a time machine I'll go back 100 years and tell everyone to just wall off the area. Other then that though, I somehow doubt that handing AQ a series of stunning total victories(including the complete elimination of Israel, something of a sticking point) is going to cause them to shrink.

Invade Iraq to do something about 9/11? Brilliant! I supported getting AQ, and I did not support letting AQ get away to Pakistan because we had to invade Iraq. But since we aren't going to go after these people in Pakistan, all we can do is drive AQ recruitment. As for the tone of your question, FU jackass.

AQ was in Pakistan before 2003.

[Berzerker]

I don't know either, so I take them at their word.

They said they attacked us because we put our troops in Saudi Arabia, not because they want us to become Muslims...or because we are free. Members of the Saudi royal family were telling us to get our troops out because they knew why they were attacking us... Notwithstanding Rudy Giuliani's BS.

I didn't say that it does, I merely asked you if that was his goal.

Well if it doesn't exist your question is pointless. I'm supposed to care what kind of govt the people of some Afghan province has? Nope... Not at the expense of Americans. But caring what kind of government Iraq has got 3,000 Americans killed on 9/11. Sounds like your ideology at work, not mine.

Great, got a time machine I'll go back 100 years and tell everyone to just wall off the area.

Thats a response?

Other then that though, I somehow doubt that handing AQ a series of stunning total victories(including the complete elimination of Israel, something of a sticking point) is going to cause them to shrink.

AQ will conquer Israel now? They'll shrink because their support for getting us out will be gone once we're gone. As long as we stay, and hand them the stunning victory of escaping Afghanistan and setting up in Pakistan, they will find recruits and enjoy support from millions of Muslims. You do realize you've painted us into a corner, we cant leave if AQ is in Iraq - and our being there means an endless supply of recruits - therefore we're stuck. But at least we did "something"...

AQ was in Pakistan before 2003.

They were in Afghanistan when we invaded and they got away because of Bush's pre-occupation with Iraq, whats your point? I'm supposed to pat him on the back for screwing this up beyond repair?

[Whoha]

They said they attacked us because we put our troops in Saudi Arabia, not because they want us to become Muslims...or because we are free. Members of the Saudi royal family were telling us to get our troops out because they knew why they were attacking us... Notwithstanding Rudy Giuliani's BS.

He said "First I want you to convert to Islam." I don't think he needs too much excuse to attack us. And our troops are out of SA, why hasn't AQ disappeared? Isn't that what they wanted?

Well if it doesn't exist your question is pointless. I'm supposed to care what kind of govt the people of some Afghan province has? Nope... Not at the expense of Americans. But caring what kind of government Iraq has got 3,000 Americans killed on 9/11. Sounds like your ideology at work, not mine.

If he wants to set up the government he would like in some backwater area then it isn't a problem, but again, he had that before september 11th, with ZERO US interference. He has it now, though not over all of Afghanistan anymore. It isn't what he wants.

Thats a response?

It is all the response your absurd suggestion deserves.

AQ will conquer Israel now? They'll shrink because their support for getting us out will be gone once we're gone.

What you posted:

AQ will shrink if there are no more infidels occupying the Middle East.

Just what do you think that means to them?

They were in Afghanistan when we invaded and they got away because of Bush's pre-occupation with Iraq, whats your point? I'm supposed to pat him on the back for screwing this up beyond repair?

What is your point, that you supported "not letting AQ get away", but that isn't what happened. I myself would prefer that we finish the job and go into Pakistan rather then leave.

I'll probably go through one more iteration of this, but I'm not laboring under any assumptions about changing your mind(or establishing the underlying facts for that matter).

[Agathon]

Al Qaeda's goal is to bring Islamist governments to power in predominantly Sunni Arab states.

This only worked once before: when they managed to provoke a foreign power to invade a Muslim country, and then defeated it, replacing the old regime with an Islamist government.

They tried it again, and so far it seems to be working, despite a few minor hiccups.

[Agathon]

Re: Re: Re: A Question of Motives - Al Qaeda

Originally posted by SpencerH


I love this so called "logic" of the left. It excludes the fact that Iran, the greatest threat to democracy since nazi germany, even exists. We have to make it crystal clear to the "new persians" that we are not weak, that we will not back down, and that if push comes to shove that they will glow like Hiroshima and Nagasaki, no matter how repugnant that is to us.

Unfortunately, you are weak and you will back down.

There is no feasible alternative.