Harry Potter: final predictions

[hexagonian]

Re: Re: Harry Potter: final predictions

Originally posted by Drogue
I think Pettigrew, rather than Snape, will redeem himself. Firstly because it's easier to redeem a character who started off good, but turned evil, than one who has always been morally dubious. And secondly, as others have mentioned, because of his blood debt to Harry. If he does turn good, or indeed do anything redeeming, Voldemort will kill him. Or perhaps Bellatrix. Could explain how Neville would kill her - she attacks Pettigrew and is weakened.

Pettigrew will redeem his blood debt to Harry.

Having said that Pettigrew was as much, and probably more, morally dubious than Snape. His moral shortcoming was a very weak will, and that was demonstrated throughout his life. He joined up with the group of kids at Hogwarts that was basically a crowd of bullies. And he was so weak, he sold out his friend James to protect his own skin. I feel a great deal more empathy for Snape (a kid who was mecilessly bullied, fell into darkness, but tries to redeem himself even though he is still a social cripple) rather than Pettigrew, who is a self-preserving toadie.

[Drogue]

Re: Re: Re: Harry Potter: final predictions

Originally posted by hexagonian
Pettigrew will redeem his blood debt to Harry.

Having said that Pettigrew was as much, and probably more, morally dubious than Snape. His moral shortcoming was a very weak will, and that was demonstrated throughout his life. He joined up with the group of kids at Hogwarts that was basically a crowd of bullies. And he was so weak, he sold out his friend James to protect his own skin. I feel a great deal more empathy for Snape (a kid who was mecilessly bullied, fell into darkness, but tries to redeem himself even though he is still a social cripple) rather than Pettigrew, who is a self-preserving toadie.

Perhaps, but I don't think being weak makes him morally dubious. He was previously good, in the Order vs Voldemort side of things, but he turned. Snape has never fully chosen either side. I think making Snape choose a side removed the beauty of his character. Rowling has made a very two dimensional good vs evil/Order vs Voldemort axis, but allowed characters to have their own positions on this. Forcing Snape to choose makes him a two dimensional character. Far better he remain morally dubious, and I think Rowling will do as such.

Pettigrew, on the other hand, has always been firmly Order, and then firmly Voldemort. Maybe he'll switch, but I think he'll end on one side or other.

I think in Harry Potter, we're led to believe that Good vs Evil is Order vs Voldemort, and not itself directly. I've no doubt that, in taking part in bullying, Pettigrew was not entirely 'good', but he was entirely Order.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Re: Re: Re: Harry Potter: final predictions

Originally posted by hexagonian

Pettigrew will redeem his blood debt to Harry.

Having said that Pettigrew was as much, and probably more, morally dubious than Snape. His moral shortcoming was a very weak will, and that was demonstrated throughout his life. He joined up with the group of kids at Hogwarts that was basically a crowd of bullies. And he was so weak, he sold out his friend James to protect his own skin. I feel a great deal more empathy for Snape (a kid who was mecilessly bullied, fell into darkness, but tries to redeem himself even though he is still a social cripple) rather than Pettigrew, who is a self-preserving toadie.

Well said. Snape had a reason for perhaps going to the dark side. He was bullied horribly for basically not fitting in. And he found that with Voldemort, Snape could actually be in with an "in crowd". And (perhaps) when he realizes what they are doing, he wants out.

Better than someone who vacillates his loyalties based on which way the wind is blowing.

[lord of the mark]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Harry Potter: final predictions

Originally posted by Drogue

Perhaps, but I don't think being weak makes him morally dubious. He was previously good, in the Order vs Voldemort side of things, but he turned. Snape has never fully chosen either side. .

We dont know that. A double agent can well be one side or the other, even though its impossible to tell whos actually running him. We know that he WAS a spy for the death eaters at one point. We know that Dumbledore THOUGHT Snape had turned, and was completely loyal. Which meant that ANY info he provided to the death eaters after Voldemorts return, was either planted to deceive the DE's or to maintain cover. Now its quite possible that Dumbledore was right, and that Snape HAD chosen the Order. Its also possible that Dumbledore has been deceived from the beginning, and that everything Snape has told the Order has been either planted info, or for the purpose of providing cover.

By the nature of things a double agents options are open, but that does not prove they havent actually made a choice.

This is less a trope of fantasy/magic lit, than of say John Le Carre.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by hexagonian
By taking Harry on the search for the Horcrux, and by telling him all he knew about Voldemort and those Horcruxes, Dumbledore has given Harry the tools he needs to defeat Voldemort. Dumbledore may be valuable, and ideally, he would like to be there to continue to help, but once Harry has the information, Dumbledore is no longer needed to defeat Voldemort. It has always rested on Harry's shoulders to be the one who will untimately defeat Voldemort.

The whole scene has a feel of foreknowledge on the part of Dumbledore, as well as a means to teach Harry about what he would need to do. He really seemed to have some foreknowledge of the overall danger by asking Harry to do whatever he asked him to do, even if it caused Dumbledore pain and suffering.

Actually, (this is a stretch, but it does work) it is very possible that Dumbledore had visited the cave beforehand and had determined what needed to get done to get the Horcrux. Having determined the risks and having determined that by drinking the potion protecting the Horcrux would really weaken him (but not kill him) he decided that this would be the opportune time to take Harry with him. He would not show his foreknowledge of what needed to be done, to demonstrate to Harry that he needed to be careful and to think about what he needed to do when trying to get the rest of the Horcruxes. (do not rush in but think...)

Like a good teacher, dealing with a somewhat inexperienced student, Dumbledore takes the risks upon himself, but lets the student also take a hand in the task.

He also knew that this would be the prime time for Malfoy to make his move, and prepared for the very possible outcome of his own death. He may have been taken by surprise by the success that Malfoy had - (after all Malfoy shut Snape out of the plan), but it can also be argued that he was not only talking with Malfoy to stall a bit (to see if the Order could handle the situation), but also to try to help Malfoy redeem himself. After all, Dumbledore places a great deal of importance on the choices people make, so he wants Malfoy to make that choice with a free will.

Unfortunately, the Horcrux was fake, but even Dumbledore could not have known this. It's not a disaster though...

Rowlngs has spent the entire series setting these themes up. I cannot believe that the message that she would send to her readers is that in the one area that Dumbledore has never wavered in (his absolute trust in Snape), he was dead wrong.

The message left to the reader is that love is NOT more powerful than evil.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
1. Yes, the explanation Snape gives could well be true. If it werent possible, it wouldnt be persuasive to LeStrange and Narcissa, let alone to us.
2. However its not "free" LeStrange has just challenged his loyalty, based on his not helping Quirrel. he has to give a reason for that. What reason would you have given her?
3. He may well still like dark magic in general. He was interested in dark magic before the first Voldemort war, and having an interest in dark magic doesnt seem to automatically make you a death eater, or why would the ministry allow "knockturn alley" and its shops to exist? Again, the question isnt if he is interested in dark magic, but if hes still loyal to the death eaters.

If I were in that situation, I would have made clear my loyalty to Voldemort, and just said that the Dark Lord must have had his reasons for not revealing himself.

Instead, Snape gives us an insight into the Death Eater mentality, they'll follow whoever is most powerful. This could explain why Voldemort didn't reveal himself to Snape. In his weakened state, he couldn't be sure that Snape wouldn't betray him to Dumbledore and finally get that DADA job.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by hexagonian
Rowlngs has spent the entire series setting these themes up. I cannot believe that the message that she would send to her readers is that in the one area that Dumbledore has never wavered in (his absolute trust in Snape), he was dead wrong.

The message left to the reader is that love is NOT more powerful than evil.

That is exactly my view as well. Everything is set up in the way it is, if Snape is evil, Dumbledore looks like a COMPLETE moron. He may have been wise in some things, but instead of the HP's Churchill, he becomes a fool, and more Chamberlain.

I doubt Rowling would do that to Dumbledore's character.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by hexagonian
The message left to the reader is that love is NOT more powerful than evil.

I thought that'd end up actually as the message at the end - Harry uses love to defeat Voldemort's evil?

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
That is exactly my view as well. Everything is set up in the way it is, if Snape is evil, Dumbledore looks like a COMPLETE moron. He may have been wise in some things, but instead of the HP's Churchill, he becomes a fool, and more Chamberlain.

I doubt Rowling would do that to Dumbledore's character.

Snape doesn't have to be good for this to be right. Look at Gollem in Lord of the Rings. He's not good, but without him they wouldn't have won. I think Snape's the same. I don't think he'll ever choose a side, it would spoil a wonderfully three-dimensional character. However I do think his actions will be necessary for Harry to defeat Voldemort. Dumbledore trusts that Snape is necessary, that his actions will help Harry, not that he is good underneath.

[b etor]

gollUm

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Drogue

I thought that'd end up actually as the message at the end - Harry uses love to defeat Voldemort's evil?

Isn't that what happened in OotP?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Drogue
Snape doesn't have to be good for this to be right. Look at Gollem in Lord of the Rings. He's not good, but without him they wouldn't have won. I think Snape's the same. I don't think he'll ever choose a side, it would spoil a wonderfully three-dimensional character. However I do think his actions will be necessary for Harry to defeat Voldemort. Dumbledore trusts that Snape is necessary, that his actions will help Harry, not that he is good underneath.

Note, I said that if Snape is evil then... . Snape can't be evil for DD to come off ok. If he's ambiguous, but is instrumental in Harry's victory, then that's fine.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Isn't that what happened in OotP?

Obviously not completely, since Voldemort isn't vanquished yet.

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Note, I said that if Snape is evil then... . Snape can't be evil for DD to come off ok. If he's ambiguous, but is instrumental in Harry's victory, then that's fine.

He could still be evil, but inadvertantly be instrumental in Harry's victory. He could intend to hurt Harry but miss and hit Volde, as an example.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Drogue Snape doesn't have to be good for this to be right. Look at Gollem in Lord of the Rings. He's not good, but without him they wouldn't have won. I think Snape's the same. I don't think he'll ever choose a side, it would spoil a wonderfully three-dimensional character. However I do think his actions will be necessary for Harry to defeat Voldemort. Dumbledore trusts that Snape is necessary, that his actions will help Harry, not that he is good underneath.

There is an underlying dynamic though...

Gandalf did not trust Gollum, but in his (limited) foreknowledge, he sensed that Gollum had a role to play that he did not understand. Dumbledore trusts Snape, and has stated this over and over.

Gollum is more similar to Pettigrew than Snape. Both were evil in a small, petty way. Both were spared by a merciful act, and it was that act of mercy which actually worked out for good.

In Gollum's case, if he was not spared, Frodo would have succumbed to evil himself. In the case of Pettigrew, we will have to wait and see...

Both Dumbledore and Gandalf admit to failing. In Dumbledore's case, his main failing is his handling of Harry in Book 5. I believe this is Rowling's way of making Dumbledore into something less-than-perfect to the reader, rather than allowing Dumbledore to appear all-knowing in all things.

Having shown that side of Dumbledore, she will allow Dumbledore to be right about Snape, even though circumstances appear otherwise. The reader is viewing the story through Harry's eyes, so it is completely natural that Snape is seen in the worst light. There are more than enough clues thoughout to show Snape what he truly is...a loyal member of the Order.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Drogue

Obviously not completely, since Voldemort isn't vanquished yet.


He could still be evil, but inadvertantly be instrumental in Harry's victory. He could intend to hurt Harry but miss and hit Volde, as an example.

Unless Dumbledore could have predicted that, he would still look like a moron.

DD to Snape is not analogous to Gandalf to Gollum. Gandalf knows gollum is bad, but thinks he has a role to play in the end. DD explicitly says he trusts Snape, absolutely.

editops, cross post

[Imran Siddiqui]

Heh... that's a nice cross post though.