Jesus take the wheel: Sextuplets keep dying

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Asher


While I applaud your comparison of hardcore Christians to muslim terrorists, I don't think it's correct.

I suppose that extremist of anytype could be added to the list. Even atheist extremist.

Hardcore Christians are just more observant than you are, while muslim terrorists do not follow the Koran.

I'm pretty observant. I'm just not an extremist.

Extremist Christians and extremist muslims both draw their philosophical base from the Bible and koran respectively. They subject these works to interpretations that fit their humanistically preconceived ideas.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Patroklos
I would try and save both W, and probably die myself in the effort. I am sure if you ask enough police officers, firefighters, and soldier/sailors you will find that choice to be very common.

You're trying to sidestep the hypo. The premise is that your attempt to save the child will inevitably lead to one child living, one child dying. This presupposes that you're giving the best possible effort to conduct the rescue mission, sacrificing your life in the process if that's included in your definition of best possible attempt.

What do you do?

[Patroklos]

No, you can't. They can't think, they can't talk, and they will die before they can grow into something that can think and talk.

They will die, they have 1% chance, would you make up your damn mind? Either they are going to die or they are not, you change your mind in each post, actually several times within the same posts.

This is so stupid I'm not even going to respond to that anymore.

"screw you guys I am going home!"



Well you are consistent with one thing, you always run away with your tail between your legs when so obviously, completely, and unquestionably proved to be a raving infant.

Asher

Absolutely. There have been many medical studies on this. Why do you think the doctors, who specialize in this stuff, made the recommendation they did? They don't enjoy aborting fetuses.

Really, know anything about them? Are we to assume 1/2/3 aborted fetuses 1% for everyone left until we get to magic number 4? What chance of survival is acceptable to you Asher?

I will not apply my "standards" universally

Obviously

because there are no standards.

Odd, as you wax on constantly about professional opinions, and more importantly numbers/probabilites. If we can't apply this to any other scenario why should we apply it here? Apparently math and statistics are meaningless to population/disease because Asher says so, well it looks like some parents decided to use another standard here.

Every situation is unique and it needs to be analyzed as such. The problems with "overpopulation in Africa" are nowhere near the same as too many fetuses fighting in a single womb.

Actually the parallel is near perfect, given the significant portion of the population is doomed to die.

Oh well, you have already defacto conceded this via temper tantrum. Your complete failure to poke a single hole in it of offer any alternative works too. Of the fact that you have been babbling for three pages.

The same logic cannot be applied, and the only reason you still flog this horse is because you think all solutions must be universal if some mental midget like yourself thinks they are similar. That is not the case.

Am I the one argueing we should decide life and death by statistics, or you?

In fact, can you quote me taking a position in this thead other than

1.) your stupid and inconsistant.

2.) your Christian bashing makes no sense in this case

or

3.) I understand the parents decision?

So now if someone's been drunk they can't make life or death rational decisions ever again in their life? You never cease to amaze me.

It amazed me when you said exactly that (note I never said anything of the sort). "It doesn't matter who makes the decision, because only one really makes sense." You seem to think it is okay for you to make rational decisions for whoever you want.

Now isn't that nice that you also apparently think you are the only one capable of making that decision as well! Not just for yourself, but for others too. And only using your values because those are the only ones that count right?!

Asher logic is fun!!!

Humans are not always rational. They do things for fun sometimes that are irrational, because it's fun. You can do irrational things from time to time, everyone does...but that doesn't preclude you from making rational decisions that'll save your children's lives.

Again, when someone decides your irrational decision to have fun that way is stupid atheist immoral crap and force you to be rational according to their values, I guess you won't whine. Being gay, I am sure you won't care about certain people making their rational decisions about you and then making them happen without your consent.

Treatment is different from being cured. Talk to a cancer patient about the difference sometime.

Again you have to be treated with the cure to be cured. Following? Probably not.

Why is that a point? The parents decide because they are the legal guardians.

Parents get to chose life or death when life or death are not inevitable outcomes? Or are they, which way are you feeling this second on the matter?

I hope none of those kids who didn't have "a parent who wanted them (so awesome Asher, really)" break their arms. "Timmy is lame. Damn Catholics made me have him, never really wanted him (does that mean he was never deserving to be born Asher?). Can you put him down for me doc?"

Because the question is irrelevant. There is no point to answering it. The situation is different, completely.

Really, I only stipulated one difference. But again, anyone reading knows why you won't answer.

Yes. Think it through, there is no different if 5 of them die and the sixth is on a ventilator for the rest of its life.

Really, Asher, what are you doing? I think the doctors might disagree with you on whether there is no difference.

Your playing the numbers game, then your not.

Your swearing by medical definitions/opinion, and then your not.

Your messed man.

Because I quote medical science regarding the likelihood of survival when born at 20 weeks it contradicts any opinion I have regarding the social aspects of when it's okay to abort a fetus? That's ridiculous. They do not contradict at all. You are desperately trying to worm your way out of this.

This is all your work, you get to dig yourself out of it. You think the only thing that gives a person the right to live is if someone wants them? Here you are pontificating about the crime of letting a 4 1/2 month fetus die when you support the right to murder thousands of them up to 6 months!

Again, what the hell do you care! It is just a nonselfsustaining organism right? These parents could be doing this all for fun and it should be no big deal to you. Maybe they will dry them out and make a necklace from the bodies, no different than wearing bear claws or rabbits feet right?

God your precious

First intelligent thing you've said, ever, on Apolyton.

Absolutely precious

[Patroklos]

You do get Kudos though for finally abandoning your ship scenario.

[Patroklos]

You're trying to sidestep the hypo. The premise is that your attempt to save the child will inevitably lead to one child living, one child dying. This presupposes that you're giving the best possible effort to conduct the rescue mission, sacrificing your life in the process if that's included in your definition of best possible attempt.

What do you do?

You need to modify your scenario then. Your current one doesn't work. And you are also not just making a scenario, your are putting conditions on what I can do to react even though the scenario doesn't do that itself.

If I do nothing both have a chance, but if I save one why would that neseccarily reduce the others chance of survival.

You could have just asked me the question Asher is too chicken **** to answer. But how about we day there are hostages being held at two different locations by fudi Christian terrorists (for you Asher) and I can wait for the incompotent negotiator to maybe succeed (1%) or rescue one knowing the other hostage will be killed when the fundies find out. Assuming both locations are exactly the same and I know nothing about either hostage.

I randomly pick one and rescue that one. Then wait for the media to grill me for all the reasons I was giving Asher a hard time.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Patroklos
You need to modify your scenario then. Your current one doesn't work. And you are also not just making a scenario, your are putting conditions on what I can do to react even though the scenario doesn't do that itself.

The scenario works just fine. You were trying to sidestep it, so I clarified the choices for you. I could rewrite it and combine the two posts for you, specifically detailing that the rescue effort is the best possible effort that you can give. It doesn't change anything, though, and it doesn't change the main issue in the thread (unless you believe the doctors wouldn't do or haven't done everything they can to save the children)

[Patroklos]

The scenario works just fine. You were trying to sidestep it, so I clarified the choices for you.

No, you simply crafted a scenario that failed to properly make me answer the way you wanted me to. No harm, but true.

If I was trying to side step it I wouldn't have made a better more consticting scenario myself, and then answered it for you.

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Patroklos
No, you simply crafted a scenario that failed to properly make me answer the way you wanted me to. No harm, but true.

If I was trying to side step it I wouldn't have made a better more consticting scenario myself, and then answered it for you.

No, you're just grumpy that you've been mistreated in this thread, and, after I called you out, you made a new scenario so as to avoid having to admit that you first tried to sidestep mine. It's alright.

[Patroklos]

No, you're just grumpy that you've been mistreated in this thread

I don't think I am grumpy

you first tried to sidestep mine.

Doesn't mean it wasn't an honest answer. Trying to save them both is what I would do in real life, of course I would side step your intention to do int in a hypo if you let me!

[Odin]

It's things like this that make the so-called "pro-life" people look like a-holes. They should of aborted 4 of the fetuses and let the rest become perfectly healthy babies, but NOOOO, thier religious lunancy makes them keep all of them so that any babies that do survive are likely to have physical and mental disabilities.

[Asher]

When was the last time somebody has self-pwn3d themselves so valiantly? I'm amazed by this display.

[Kuciwalker]

hey should of aborted 4 of the fetuses and let the rest become perfectly healthy babies

Your abortion of English grammar is worse crime

[Asher]

In fact, can you quote me taking a position in this thead other than

1.) your stupid and inconsistant.

2.) your Christian bashing makes no sense in this case

No, and that's the beauty of it.

Not only is your #1 quote just awesome from a grammar perspective, it's awesome from a content perspective also.

The #2 quote is awesome because the entire reason the parents did not abort four of the fetuses was because of their Christianity.

In your own summary of your own positions, you have summarily dismantled your own argument.

I've never seen someone so wrong so consistently. Even in your insults of me, eg:

Well you are consistent with one thing, you always run away with your tail between your legs when so obviously, completely, and unquestionably proved to be a raving infant.

If there's one thing I'm known for on Poly, it's certainly not running away from an argument.

I'm starting to question if your entire argument was made out of boredom, taking the opposite of what should be right and true and saying that?

Really, know anything about them? Are we to assume 1/2/3 aborted fetuses 1% for everyone left until we get to magic number 4? What chance of survival is acceptable to you Asher?

Oh, gee, I don't know. I think I'd take the 2 99%, 4 0% chances over the 6 1% chances. But then again, I know how math works, so I've got a huge advantage here over you.

[Patroklos]

If there's one thing I'm known for on Poly, it's certainly not running away from an argument.

Hardly, you just start insulting people hoping they will forget they bested you. Really the same thing. Though in this case, you bested yourself

Or start talking about grammar instead of the issue. Standard Poly practice. Every time I quote you my spellcheck has to fix your spelling

you have summarily dismantled your own argument.

What was my argument again?

The sad think is you have yet to realize I have done nothing but critique you.

Thank you Asher, you've been fun. A less then graceful disengagement on your part, but you tried hard on this one. I'll let you go.

But then again, I know how math works

I bet, you seem to worship it like a God. And apply it just as inconsistantly as a Christian.

Asher