Jesus take the wheel: Sextuplets keep dying

[Patroklos]

Imagine a situation in which identical baby twins are trapped in a burning building. They're positioned in such a way that, by saving one of them, debris will fall on the other and kill that child. However, if you do nothing, there's a very small chance that they'll both be able to wriggle out of the burning building and into safety. There's a 1% chance of both of them wriggling their way to safety if you don't act, but a 99% chance that they both die in the fire.

Do you save one child, knowing that you'll doom the other, or do you refrain from acting, knowing that both will almost certainly die but hoping against hope that both beat the 1% odds and survive?

I would try and save both W, and probably die myself in the effort. I am sure if you ask enough police officers, firefighters, and soldier/sailors you will find that choice to be very common.

[PLATO]

Look...I'm a "Hard Core" Christian and I understand that given the circumstances there was only one logical choice. Guynemer's post on the reality of the situation for the children is the crux of the matter. Absolutely it is a difficult choice for anyone to voluntarily terminate the lives of their children, but in life you are faced with difficult choices.

IMHO, it is not anti-Christian to make a choice to save lives that would assuredly be lost otherwise.

Now, as far as Christian's being insane...we'll see.

[Patroklos]

Look...I'm a "Hard Core" Christian and I understand that given the circumstances there was only one logical choice.

Agreed. All I said was that I understood their choice.

Obviously I would kill someone under certain circumstances.

That is not really what Asher is on about.

[Bosh]

Look kids who are born in the second trimester (as sextuplets inevitably are) are more miscarriages than children. Keeping such miscarriages alive is more unnatural and cruel than anything else that's been discussed on this thread. Hell, if I had just one kid that was born 22 weeks premature you better believe I'd be against the kind of surgery that would be necessary to keep it alive.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Patroklos
We may actually be able to.

No, you can't. They can't think, they can't talk, and they will die before they can grow into something that can think and talk.

We can ask the Africans ..

This is so stupid I'm not even going to respond to that anymore.

And do we know what the chances are for those left after aborting 1, 2, or 3 fetuses?

Absolutely. There have been many medical studies on this. Why do you think the doctors, who specialize in this stuff, made the recommendation they did? They don't enjoy aborting fetuses.

It is not ridiculous in light your refusal to apply your standards universally

I will not apply my "standards" universally because there are no standards. Every situation is unique and it needs to be analyzed as such. The problems with "overpopulation in Africa" are nowhere near the same as too many fetuses fighting in a single womb. The same logic cannot be applied, and the only reason you still flog this horse is because you think all solutions must be universal if some mental midget like yourself thinks they are similar. That is not the case.

Never been smashed? You do irrational things and would be mighty pissed if someone forced you to stop them.

So now if someone's been drunk they can't make life or death rational decisions ever again in their life? You never cease to amaze me.

Humans are not always rational. They do things for fun sometimes that are irrational, because it's fun. You can do irrational things from time to time, everyone does...but that doesn't preclude you from making rational decisions that'll save your children's lives.

Usually you have to be treated with a cure to be cured.

Treatment is different from being cured. Talk to a cancer patient about the difference sometime.

So is it all numbers or what Asher?

And it is not "2 chances of 99%." Again, it is "2 chances of 99% AND 4 chances of 0%." You leave that out

Because the 4 chances of 0% don't affect a damn thing. Do you know how sums work?

What is, say, 99 + 0 + 0 + 0 equal to?

I think it makes you feel better to not remind yourself you have to kill people to get your desired numbers.

I do not consider them people. They're organisms that can grow into people if in a healthy environment -- the womb in this case was NOT such an environment. And this has nothing to do with feeling better, that's all you -- I'm the realist. If aborting four of them gives me two healthy babies, I'm all for it. The doctors told them, point blank, the babies will die...and they are. They don't care. God will fix it, or something...

That is the point, they did not decide. You did.

Why is that a point? The parents decide because they are the legal guardians. You're spinning in circles so fast here it's making me dizzy.

I have never seen you so scared of a question! I mean WOW. And then to assert it's not relevant?

Because the question is irrelevant. There is no point to answering it. The situation is different, completely.

Odd, didn't...you...just...say they were doomed to die

Yes. Think it through, there is no different if 5 of them die and the sixth is on a ventilator for the rest of its life.

Medicine, science, professionals? Odd how you profess your reliance on them and then come up with a gem like this...

Medicine triumphs once again

What kind of twisted logic is this? Seriously?

Because I quote medical science regarding the likelihood of survival when born at 20 weeks it contradicts any opinion I have regarding the social aspects of when it's okay to abort a fetus? That's ridiculous. They do not contradict at all. You are desperately trying to worm your way out of this.

Asher

First intelligent thing you've said, ever, on Apolyton.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Your the one who thinks you become a human being through the good feelings of people wanting you and wanting to give you a home.

Strawman.

People become human when they become capable of thought and sentient. 20 week old fetuses are not.

Whether a child should be brought into the world depends on if he's going to be accepted into a loving home.

I'm not surprised you cannot tell the difference.

[PLATO]

In effect then, what we are saying is that their Christianity is not the basis for their insanity (if you would call it that). The simple fact that there are other "hard core" Christians that would not make the same decision would be prima facie evidence that it is not their Christianity that chose them to make that decision.

Therefore, it would be their personal value system...which is something that Christians and non-Christians both have.

Now, one could argue that it was their interpretation of Christianity that caused them to make this particular decision. However, one could equally argue that Asher's interpretation of Christianity has caused him to make the decision to attack them on religious grounds.

If allowing oneself to be influenced by Christianity is the definition of insane, then I would submit that everyone participating in this thread is insane, for that is the subject that is really under discussion here.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Patroklos
I would try and save both W, and probably die myself in the effort. I am sure if you ask enough police officers, firefighters, and soldier/sailors you will find that choice to be very common.

Only among idiots who let both of their children die.

Just because stupidity is common doesn't make it right.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Asher

Strawman.

People become human when they become capable of thought and sentient. 20 week old fetuses are not.

Whether a child should be brought into the world depends on if he's going to be accepted into a loving home.

I'm not surprised you cannot tell the difference.

I have to disagree with this definition of "being human". Someone who is injured in such a way that they are no longer sentient do not suddenly become non humans. They may no longer be alive by some definitions, but I have never seen their humanity questioned.

[Asher]

Originally posted by PLATO

If allowing oneself to be influenced by Christianity is the definition of insane, then I would submit that everyone participating in this thread is insane, for that is the subject that is really under discussion here.

Does not follow at all. Christians are insane because they throw rationality out the window in favour of a God that does not exist to save their children's lives. The children then die.

It's no different than putting your child out on the street, alone, for 2 months and saying "If God loves him, he'll stay alive".

Meanwhile, critiquing people who let such stupidity influence their judgement to the detriment of their children is not insane...it is sane.

[Asher]

Originally posted by PLATO
I have to disagree with this definition of "being human". Someone who is injured in such a way that they are no longer sentient do not suddenly become non humans. They may no longer be alive by some definitions, but I have never seen their humanity questioned.

That's definitely an opinion I do not share.

Once I'm brain dead and living off of machines, I want the plug pulled. I'm no longer alive. I simply exist.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Asher

Does not follow at all. Christians are insane because they throw rationality out the window in favour of a God that does not exist to save their children's lives. The children then die.

It's no different than putting your child out on the street, alone, for 2 months and saying "If God loves him, he'll stay alive".

Meanwhile, critiquing people who let such stupidity influence their judgement to the detriment of their children is not insane...it is sane.

I believe I already stated my answer to this several posts back. In addition, I also believe that I have shown how this was not a "Christian" decision, but rather a personal value judgement. I am Christian and would not have made their choice. Therefore you cannot simply say that this was a Christian decision and ridicule it on that basis.

If we were to extrapolate your generalization of religion, then we should also assume that all muslims are terrorist simply because some choose to be.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Asher

That's definitely an opinion I do not share.

Once I'm brain dead and living off of machines, I want the plug pulled. I'm no longer alive. I simply exist.

I don't disagree with that at all. I simply state that you are still a human being at that point. I have made no judgement on what should happen at that point.

Personally, I agree with you on that...let me go. However, that is a choice for each individual to make.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by PLATO


In fact, if they were aware of the facts that Guynemer pointed out, then they are nearly criminal in their decision if you ask me.

Whoa whoa. The parents likely had no idea they were going to deliver when they did. If they had lasted a bit longer--say, 24 weeks gestation--the outlook would be considerably better, if not exactly sunny.

The doctors, however, have much to answer for.

(Again, this is assuming the "4.5 months early" bit is true.)

[Asher]

Originally posted by PLATO


I believe I already stated my answer to this several posts back. In addition, I also believe that I have shown how this was not a "Christian" decision, but rather a personal value judgement. I am Christian and would not have made their choice. Therefore you cannot simply say that this was a Christian decision and ridicule it on that basis.

If we were to extrapolate your generalization of religion, then we should also assume that all muslims are terrorist simply because some choose to be.

While I applaud your comparison of hardcore Christians to muslim terrorists, I don't think it's correct.

Hardcore Christians are just more observant than you are, while muslim terrorists do not follow the Koran.