Two Palestinian States?

[Ramo]

Not exactly unbiased on Israel and the ME. But since theyre not owned by Murdoch or Black, I suppose we must let that pass.

Last I checked, he was writing an opinion piece. He wasn't asking us to trust info he got from an anonymous source in the PA. There are a handful of journalists that I might give the benefit of doubt to, but they have to earn it. And having a job at the JP ain't enough.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ramo
lotm has tunred into a libertarian

Before I delve into all that (later), I'd like to point out one major problem to the Indyk plan:

Once he controls the territory, he could make a peace deal with Israel that establishes a Palestinian state with provisional borders in the West Bank and the Arab suburbs of East Jerusalem.

As, IIRC, Matt Yglesias has pointed out, there's practically no constitutency for that kind of border among Pals. There would need to be some sort of joint sovereignty worked out in the Old City, otherwise Abbas would be crucified.

If Indyk had gone into even the barest details on the most widely touted current plan for the Old City, his column would have to have been about 3x as long. WaPo doesnt usually give that much room to Oped columnists.

Obviously negotiations to a final status agreement are not going to be easy, and will still involved wrestling with big issues. But they can at least get started, with better prospects than any time since Arafat died, and certainly better prospects than when he was alive.

[Zkribbler]

Such a lotta words

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
Such a lotta words

QFT

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ramo

Not exactly unbiased on Israel and the ME. But since theyre not owned by Murdoch or Black, I suppose we must let that pass.

Last I checked, he was writing an opinion piece. He wasn't asking us to trust info he got from an anonymous source in the PA.

In fact he made quite a number of assertions about questions of fact. Those questions of fact are at the core of his argument.

[lord of the mark]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070619/.../hamas_in_wait;_ylt=AhO8oe.MxLqvB1MVkglDvhRvaA8F


Hamas lying in wait in West Bank By MOHAMMED DARAGHMEH, Associated Press Writer

RAMALLAH, West Bank - Hamas leaders in the West Bank have been driven underground by a Fatah campaign of kidnappings and arrests, but the Islamic militants warn they'll eventually come out of hiding to try to destabilize the rule of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas with car bombings and assassinations.

Hamas is too weak now for a frontal assault on Fatah in the West Bank, but Iranian funding for Hamas, Abbas' political weakness and Fatah infighting could one day change the balance, Fatah leaders, Hamas militants and Israeli analysts say.

Security forces allied with Abbas say they're determined to snuff out Hamas in the West Bank. The president has declared the Hamas militias illegal, and his security chiefs said they wouldn't just go after Hamas' weapons, but also its money.

"The only way to deal with Hamas ... is by dismantling every single military cell in the West Bank, and that's what the security apparatus is doing now," said Kamal Abu Rob, a Fatah lawmaker.

The best insurance against a Hamas takeover might come from elsewhere: Israel's relentless pursuit of Hamas has kept the militants on the defensive and the resumption of foreign aid to the West Bank, after a 15-month boycott, could swing public opinion strongly in Abbas' favor.

Hamas leaders are keeping their heads down. In the past week, some 120 Hamas activists have been arrested by security forces or kidnapped by a violent Fatah offshoot. Gunmen have stormed the parliament building in Ramallah, burned offices of Hamas lawmakers in Nablus and warned some government employees with Hamas ties not to return to work. One Hamas member has been killed and another seriously wounded. Several others have been shot in the legs.

Khouloud al-Masri, a Hamas member of the Nablus municipal council, was forced from her office Tuesday. She said Fatah gunmen told her she wouldn't be able to return the next day. Al-Masri said her husband is in hiding and their five children are with grandparents.

In response, Hamas has made threats. "They (Fatah leaders) think Hamas is weak in the West Bank, just as they thought Hamas was in Gaza," said Mahmoud Zahar, a Hamas hard-liner in Gaza. "The West Bank may surprise the world with what they don't expect, and it's best for them not to fall into this trap."

Hamas' military strength in the West Bank is difficult to assess. Some Israeli analysts say only a few dozen gunmen escaped arrest by Israel.

But a top Palestinian security official in Ramallah said Hamas has recruited hundreds who are organized in sleeper cells, outfitted with guns and uniforms, and ready to move. Hamas, which carried out dozens of suicide bombings in Israel in recent years, can also draw on explosives experts and runs secret bomb labs, he said, speaking on condition of anonymity in line with the rules of his security service.

A senior Hamas militant leader said the group has recruited about 4,000 gunmen in Nablus and Hebron, and has thousands of weapons. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he is wanted by Israel.

He said that when the signal comes to act, Hamas would carry out car bombs and try to assassinate Fatah leaders to destabilize the West Bank. On Tuesday, civilian cars were banned from security headquarters in the territory amid concerns about car bombs.

Money might help tilt the balance.

Fatah's former Gaza strongman Mohammed Dahlan alleged that Iran funded Hamas' onslaught on Gaza with some $250 million. "If we are not careful, it (the Iranian-directed campaign) will move to the West Bank," he told Palestine TV.

And Hillel Frisch, an Israeli analyst, said Iranian money could buy off Fatah security officers who haven't been fully paid for months. He also noted that militants have moved from one group to the other in the past, and that money could be a strong incentive.

With the foreign aid embargo lifted, Abbas expects full Western support for his government. The resumption of aid will allow him to pay his 27,000 security forces in the West Bank and ensure their loyalty.

Palestinians are following the power struggle with trepidation. "I hope that this new government will control security and control the street," said Medhat Hanans, 45, a shopkeeper in Ramallah. "The foreign aid that we will receive will help the government a lot."

The Ramallah security chief said he has orders to block money to Hamas, some of which he says is funneled through West Bank businesses. He said Hamas' social institutions, such as welfare organizations, will also to be targeted.

Fatah's greatest weakness — its petty internal rivalries — may yet sabotage its stand against Hamas. Behind the scenes, there's angry finger-pointing over the loss of Gaza, but Fatah activists are under orders not to go public.

Kadoura Fares, a Fatah leader in Ramallah, said the shock of recent days might finally shake up the movement, which failed to make reforms even after its election defeat to Hamas in 2006.

"Fatah activists have now realized the importance of defending their movement and building it, and the necessity of halting the internal battles," he said. "For the first time, you find a kind of harmony in the movement, because it is threatened by Hamas, and our national project (of a state) is threatened too."

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

The situation is bleak, if predictable. The unity government arrangement was always a fragile one. The core group within both Fatah and Hamas who supported a national political accommodation between the factions were fighting a rearguard action against rejectionists from within their respective ranks from day one.

Interesting rhetorical turn of phrase. "Rejectionists" are those opposed to a Hamas-Fatah unity govt. A govt that would included Hamasniks refusing to accept Israel, who in most folks terminology are "rejectionists"
I would say this indicates the attitude of the author of this article. IMHO the unity govt was fragile because it conflicted with Abbas's commitment to the peace process, as long as Hamas retained its positions in denial of the peace process, which it had done, despite some weasel words.

Levy's stance seems to be that recognition of Israel should be dropped as a condition for talks. The idea, presumably, would be that if Israel would talk with the Hamasniks and PA cabinets including them they'd eventually mellow and accept a two-state solution in a final settlement sometime in the indefinte future.

I suppose he's got a point of sorts; at the end of the day, Hamas refusenikry is just talk - there's not a fcuking thing they can do about the existence of Israel. But I somehow doubt that the mellowing part would work.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Didn't feel like making a new thread for this. It's obviously a good deal of propaganda, but reading through things you can see why Hamas has so much support... it actually does provide services to the people, as opposed to Fatah, which seems more concerned with their own hold on power. I think this distinction is going to lead to Fatah ultimately losing its grip on the WB eventually as well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/20/opinion/20yousef.html

June 20, 2007

Op-Ed Contributor

What Hamas Wants
By AHMED YOUSEF

Gaza City

THE events in Gaza over the last few days have been described in the West as a coup. In essence, they have been the opposite. Eighteen months ago, our Hamas Party won the Palestinian parliamentary elections and entered office under Prime Minister Ismail Haniya but never received the handover of real power from Fatah, the losing party. The Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, has now tried to replace the winning Hamas government with one of his own, returning Fatah to power while many of our elected members of Parliament languish in Israeli jails. That is the real coup.

From the day Hamas won the general elections in 2006 it offered Fatah the chance of joining forces and forming a unity government. It tried to engage the international community to explain its platform for peace. It has consistently offered a 10-year cease-fire with the Israelis to try to create an atmosphere of calm in which we resolve our differences. Hamas even adhered to a unilateral cease-fire for 18 months in an effort to normalize the situation on the ground. None of these points appear to have been recognized in the press coverage of the last few days.

Nor has it been evident to many people in the West that the civil unrest in Gaza and the West Bank has been precipitated by the American and Israeli policy of arming elements of the Fatah opposition who want to attack Hamas and force us from office. For 18 months we have tried to find ways to coexist with Fatah, entering into a unity government, even conceding key positions in the cabinet to their and international demands, negotiating up until the last moment to try to provide security for all of our people on the streets of Gaza.

Sadly, it became apparent that not all officials from Fatah were negotiating in good faith. There were attempts on Mr. Haniya’s life last week, and eventually we were forced into trying to take control of a very dangerous situation in order to provide political stability and establish law and order.

The streets of Gaza are now calm for the first time in a very long time. We have begun disarming some of the drug dealers and the armed gangs and we hope to restore a sense of security and safety to the citizens of Gaza. We want to get children back to school, get basic services functioning again, and provide long-term economic gains for our people.

Our stated aim when we won the election was to effect reform, end corruption and bring economic prosperity to our people. Our sole focus is Palestinian rights and good governance. We now hope to create a climate of peace and tranquillity within our community that will pave the way for an end to internal strife and bring about the release of the British journalist Alan Johnston, whose kidnapping in March by non-Hamas members is a stain on the reputation of the Palestinian people.

We reject attempts to divide Palestine into two parts and to pass Hamas off as an extreme and dangerous force. We continue to believe that there is still a chance to establish a long-term truce. But this will not happen unless the international community fully engages with Hamas.

Any further attempts to marginalize us, starve our people into submission or attack us militarily will prove that the United States and Israeli governments are not genuinely interested in seeing an end to the violence. Dispassionate observers over the next few weeks will be able to make up their own minds as to each side’s true intentions.

Ahmed Yousef is the political adviser to Ismail Haniya, who became the Palestinian prime minister last year.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Didn't feel like making a new thread for this. It's obviously a good deal of propaganda, but reading through things you can see why Hamas has so much support... it actually does provide services to the people, as opposed to Fatah, which seems more concerned with their own hold on power. I think this distinction is going to lead to Fatah ultimately losing its grip on the WB eventually as well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/20/opinion/20yousef.html

June 20, 2007

Op-Ed Contributor

What Hamas Wants
By AHMED YOUSEF

Gaza City

THE events in Gaza over the last few days have been described in the West as a coup. In essence, they have been the opposite. Eighteen months ago, our Hamas Party won the Palestinian parliamentary elections and entered office under Prime Minister Ismail Haniya but never received the handover of real power from Fatah, the losing party.

As President, he did not have to hand over presidential responsibilities. Nor did Hamas accept the Oslo accords, the basis for the existence of the PA.

Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, has now tried to replace the winning Hamas government with one of his own, returning Fatah to power while many of our elected members of Parliament languish in Israeli jails. That is the real coup.

They are held in jails for the roles as terrorists.

Fromm the day Hamas won the general elections in 2006 it offered Fatah the chance of joining forces and forming a unity government. It tried to engage the international community to explain its platform for peace. It has consistently offered a 10-year cease-fire with the Israelis to try to create an atmosphere of calm in which we resolve our differences.

A 10 year truce is bogus. Only a short term truce is needed for negotiations for a long term peace to take place. The only purpose of a 10 year truce is to defer the war to a time when Hamas is stronger.

The Israelis refused to negotiate with the PLO till it altered its charter, recognized Israel, and renounced terror. Israel can NOT offer Hamas a better deal than that.

Hamas even adhered to a unilateral cease-fire for 18 months in an effort to normalize the situation on the ground.

Except when the firing rockets at Sderot, and kidnapping Gilad Shalit. Whom they still hold, BTW.

None of these points appear to have been recognized in the press coverage of the last few days.

Nor has it been evident to many people in the West that the civil unrest in Gaza and the West Bank has been precipitated by the American and Israeli policy of arming elements of the Fatah opposition who want to attack Hamas and force us from office. For 18 months we have tried to find ways to coexist with Fatah, entering into a unity government, even conceding key positions in the cabinet to their and international demands, negotiating up until the last moment to try to provide security for all of our people on the streets of Gaza.

Sadly, it became apparent that not all officials from Fatah were negotiating in good faith. There were attempts on Mr. Haniya’s life last week, and eventually we were forced into trying to take control of a very dangerous situation in order to provide political stability and establish law and order.

There were attempts on the life of Fatah leaders as well. Both sides were engaging in acts of violence through this period.

The streets of Gaza are now calm for the first time in a very long time. We have begun disarming some of the drug dealers and the armed gangs and we hope to restore a sense of security and safety to the citizens of Gaza. We want to get children back to school, get basic services functioning again, and provide long-term economic gains for our people.

Yes, when one side wins, thats often what happens. Will they refrain from disrupting good order in the West Bank?

Our stated aim when we won the election was to effect reform, end corruption and bring economic prosperity to our people.

Which they have manifestly failed to do.

Our sole focus is Palestinian rights and good governance. We now hope to create a climate of peace and tranquillity within our community that will pave the way for an end to internal strife and bring about the release of the British journalist Alan Johnston, whose kidnapping in March by non-Hamas members is a stain on the reputation of the Palestinian people.

And where is Gilad Shalit? If your focus is on reform, then why dont you agree to the quartet conditions wrt Israel?

We reject attempts to divide Palestine into two parts and to pass Hamas off as an extreme and dangerous force.

Say that while sitting in an elementary school in Sderot.

We continue to believe that there is still a chance to establish a long-term truce. But this will not happen unless the international community fully engages with Hamas.

Why a long term truce? Why not peace?

Any further attempts to marginalize us, starve our people into submission or attack us militarily will prove that the United States and Israeli governments are not genuinely interested in seeing an end to the violence.

Israel is already working to deliver food. However if Hamas is going to continue to participate in or tolerate attacks on Israel, and to hold Gilad Shalit, Israels forebearance will necessarily be limited.

Dispassionate observers over the next few weeks will be able to make up their own minds as to each side’s true intentions.

indeed.

[lord of the mark]

Hamas "moderation"

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1181813084322&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[lord of the mark]

Basically Hamas will stop firing at Israel. But if Islamic Jihad or anyone else attacks Israel, and Israel strikes back at IJ, Hamas will consider that Israel has dropped the ceasefire and will attack. meanwhile Hamas will not stop IJ attacks. Clever.



"Top Hamas official: We will not be 'protector' of Israeli border

By Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondent, Haaretz Service and The Associated Press

Senior Hamas official Mahmoud Zahar said Wednesday that his group wants to maintain calm in the Gaza Strip, but will not be the "protector" of the Israeli border with Gaza.

Last week, Hamas seized control of the coastal territory after five days of violent clashes with the rival Fatah party.

Zahar said the group is open to a cease-fire with Israel if the Israel Defense Forces halts its military operations in Gaza and the West Bank.


He that Hamas is capable of halting the frequent rocket attacks on Israel out of Gaza. "But nobody will be the protector of the Israeli border."

On Wednesday afternoon, a Qassam rocket landed south of Ashkelon. No injuries were reported. The IDF said that earlier Wednesday at least one Qassam was fired into Israel by Gaza militants.

Earlier Wednesday, an IDF soldier was moderately wounded and three Palestinian gunmen were killed as IDF troops entered the southern Gaza Strip, the IDF and militant groups said. "

[Last Conformist]

AHMED YOUSEF:
[Hamas] tried to engage the international community to explain its platform for peace.

It hasn't occured to this guy their platform is understood, but unacceptable?

(that's a rhetorical question, lotm)

And I'm not sure what's so clever about "not protecting" the Israeli border. It's diplomat-speak for "we're not even gonna pretend to be a responsible government. Please kick us in the balls so people will pity us."