Native Americans - villans or heroes?

[Pekka]

Villains. That's the shortest answer I can give you.

Let's take a look at it, we always symphatize with the underdogs, but they weren't underdogs at the very beginning. Their murderous ways was quickly noticed as a trait of the nature of tribalism infected set of mind, that would react according the the codes of naturalism and extreme rage.

Indians blew it. Europeans and indians could have lived in peace, but the indians never gave gave it a chance. The always blame Europeans for being cunning and full of deception, but that's the only way you coudl deal with these butchers of women and children.

They basically were the gangsters of that time, robbing people and killing them, just because they got a small loot. The only reason people still kind of take their side as good or not too bad is because there's romantics put in it. Yes they can ride horses well and have war paintings. But what it really was, just tribes slapping some mud on themselves and not being able to come up with decent horse technology.

Indians cheated x 100 more than the settlers. I don't know why you guys give these casinos, it's not their fault, they're just heritage of the murderous tribes, but still, by doing this, you're admiting to attrocities while the other side was so pure? Hell no!

[Barnabas]

You mean natives from the USA, or also mayas, incas etc?

[Arrian]

Pekka.

-Arrian

[Patroklos]

Hey, if they wanted to erradicate the Europeans when they got here they would have had no problems.

They hesitated. They wouldn't have lasted one minute in a game of dodgeball, let alone the clash of civilizations.

[Japher]

Change is inevitable, and while the Amerindians were resistant to that change it was still insensitive of the European intruders to react to their retaliation in the way they/we did. If you instigate a change you have to be ready for the backlash, and merely removing the resistance to the change is not always the best way to react.

We see it still today, on a world scale. With contries who don't like how the world is changing.

[Pekka]

I mean sure, Euros also kind of blew it, but at least they had the decency to build a country. And these people got kicked in the mouth in Europe, so what do you think they'll do, when they see groups of tribal peoply who do ride-by?

It's the old story, peopel always dislike the fact, that when someone who has been oppressed grows stronger and starts kicking ass. Take Christianity. Romans tortured and were after Jebusnites with vengenance. And why? Just to kind of torture them. To say to other folks who aren't Christian that listen, it doesn't pay off to be a Christian, because this is what will happen to you. Then that happened for few centuries, so at the time when Christians came powerful, it was all this torture stuff again, but they weren't nearly as bad as the Romans were, but somehow Romans are cool, because they got these big muscles and horses. Just because Christians aren't so good with horses, you know it doesn't make the other side better.

So anyway, Euros grew large and angry with these indians and decided that it's enough already. You can't invite these people over a dinner, because they'll smile and cut your throat when you sleep, just to thank you for your hospitality. That's the nature of tribalist attackers. Looters and murderers. Nothing more.

And people are always like the wise indians are so deep, but that's just a myth. Have you ever seen those advisor chiefs? In movies they are always so smart, buit the only thing they do is TALK SLOW. THat' somehow a sign of superior minds? Where I come from, talking slow means you're the opposite, at least if you go advisor chief slow and say things like: Tree... before.... sun... leaf.... of.... the... ground. And then they smoke some more.

All old cultures had these, they are called shamans, they licked frogs to get high and then peed on a cup to share the high with others. I don't call that genius, I call that perverted.

[Pekka]

Japher, that's crap man. These euros were oppressed. They were refugees at best. Refugees who didn't start to spend the hard earned dollar of the indian tribes but actually started to contribute more.

That's not invasion. That's progress.

[Japher]

Yeah, instead of being oppressed they became oppressors. Great progress. It's behavioral mimicry, like how alcoholism is hereditary.

[Pekka]

And how did they oppress indians? they were just defending themselves.

If you'd say well, these people who are now in refugee camp, say Darfur, joined forces and kicked the random militias ass and dominated the fight, you'd say well, they turned into oppressors. What? No.

It was capitalism at its best. The indians demanded and the Euros supplied.

[Japher]

If anything it was a forced exodus that rightfully sparked the anger of the Indians and encouraged them to retaliate. Being told that you are no longer welcome in your own home will stir a world of hate, and I would sooner blame the evictor than the evictee. It was the US that didn't try to "get along", not the Indians.

[Pekka]

Yes, but that was only after they showed their true face. This is blaming a side that was basically kicking ass. That's not a good reason to judge alone.

http://www.rootsweb.com/~varussel/indian/

They loved massacres. They even put make up to celebrate the murders of women and children. Sounds like true men to me, yeah, they were just defending 'their lands'. BS.

[Japher]

I wonder if the Indians kept such good records?

Besides, I bet that was the Shawnees doing most of that killing. They were jerks, but were that way because the Brits 'took' their land when the Six Nations signed over the Shawnee lands, which they had no right to do.

That was probably the biggest problem, too many treaties, too many tribes, and no communication.

[Pekka]

Exactly. THeir tribalism and naturalism destroyed them. Their system would never survive, it was based on violence. It can be argued that so are other systems, but at least we know the meaning of peace and prefer it. We don't put on make up to celebrate blood spilling.

[Japher]

No, we erect monuments and honor those who killed

[Pekka]

Well, it is quite disturbing to see how much you want to apologize for the tribalist killers.