Bush Administration admits "surge" is a failure.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
When MtG is acting like a ****ing ****** with his "Oerdin and I are vets and beyond criticism" schtick, why shouldn't he be called on it?

That's not really what MtG was saying. I see that's how you chose to take it, but from my vantage point MtG was taking particular exception to Drake's ad hom against Oerdin, in a thread about Iraq.

Oerdin: ex-military, served in Iraq. Now anti-Bush/republican because of the war. At times to a fault, sure.
Drake: some guy from Nebraska who likes to call critics of the war idiots, tools, etc. and is currently pretending to be French.

Drake hauls off and calls Oerdin a "******y" somethingorother and piles on with Kuci about what a "tool" Oerdin is.

MtG's response, to me, was pretty clearly a "who the **** are you, then, Drake?" Not a blanket statement that vets are superior to others and should win debates by default. In fact, such a thing would be absurd, since no "debate" is even taking place here. It's just personal attacks back and forth.

-Arrian

[Dinner]

Jesus Christ, I go out for one night and KuciDrakeDD wanks all over my thread. Patroklos, I'm a bit disappointed that you joined in too.

Despite all the pissing and moaning to the contrary withdrawing before you have completed your objectives is an admission of failure not matter what the usual suspects say. Mods this thread has served its purpose and can now be closed.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Arrian
MtG's response, to me, was pretty clearly a "who the **** are you, then, Drake?" Not a blanket statement that vets are superior to others and should win debates by default. In fact, such a thing would be absurd, since no "debate" is even taking place here. It's just personal attacks back and forth.

-Arrian

Of course it was. You can't expect KuciDrakeDD to actually create an argument without viciously lying though. It's simply their nature.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Arrian
That's not really what MtG was saying.

My point is that it's too bad that this country has reached a point that the "freedom" which combat vets have secured for its people are wasted on ********ing little soft wastes of DNA who wouldn't themselves risk breaking a goddamned fingernail to serve their country, but feel "free" to hide behind their keyboards to trash-talk some of the combat vets who bought your freedom, asswipe.

That sure sounds more like what I was saying than anything else it could have been.

[Arrian]

Note the use of the term "trash talk." He wasn't saying Oerdin is *right* because he's military and Drake's not.

This is not hard.

-Arrian

[Dinner]

Even the UK's top guys are saying the surge is failing yet Bush is talking about draw downs. Basically, everyone who is objective has agreed the escalation hasn't worked but Bush is throwing in the towel anyway. If that isn't an admission of failure then nothing is.

US surge is failing, says UK's Iraq envoy

By Colin Freeman, Chief Foreign Correspondent, and Philip Sherwell in New York, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 1:08am BST 21/05/2007

The "troop surge" by American soldiers in Iraq is not working, one of Britain's senior military officials in Baghdad has said.

In a pessimistic assessment of the strategy designed to pull Iraq back from all-out civil war, Alastair Campbell, the outgoing defence attaché at the British Embassy in Baghdad, claimed that extra US forces were not achieving the desired drop in violence.

Mr Campbell, whose remarks may cause embarrassment to Downing Street and anger in Washington, said that the casualty figures for April - in which 1,500 civilians are believed to have been killed - provided no "encouraging" evidence.

Speaking on the record last week to a public audience at Chatham House, the London-based foreign-policy research institute, he said: "The evidence does not suggest that the surge is actually working, if reduction in casualties is a criterion. The figures in April were not encouraging."

In unusually candid comments, Mr Campbell also disclosed that American commanders had decided that the criteria for the "success" of the troop surge would be nothing more than a reduction in violence to the level prior to last year's al-Qaeda bombing of the al-Askari Mosque in Samarra, which destroyed its golden dome.

The destruction of the shrine, one of the most important Shia sites in the world, led to a dramatic escalation in sectarian conflict between Sunni and Shia factions, peaking at 3,500 deaths in September last year. Casualty figures had been running at 800 a month before that, a level that few would regard as anything approaching peace.

While the United States military has made little secret of its view that the bloodshed in Iraq can now only be contained, rather than stamped out altogether, the suggestion that 800 murders a month in the country would be a measure of success is an indication of how far the coalition has been forced to reign in its expectations.

Mr Campbell, who holds the rank of colonel, left Baghdad in February and is about to retire. His remarks that the troop surge seems not to have succeeded may also be a premature judgment.

American generals have insisted that the success - or otherwise - of the surge cannot legitimately be assessed until September, when Gen David Petraeus will present a six-month review of the year-long operation to the US Congress. Gen Petraeus, the commander of coalition forces, has said that even by then, there may be no "definitive" conclusions, as many of the 20,000 soldiers involved in the surge will not arrive until next month.

Jack Keane, a retired US general and one of the co-authors of the "surge" blueprint, rejected claims that the tactic was failing, citing a marked drop in sectarian violence since the extra troops began arriving in January. "From a security perspective, the surge is making steady progress," he told The Sunday Telegraph. "The major indicator is the reduction in sectarian violence. We will get the full effect after the last brigade arrives in June."

The casualty count for April of 1,506 civilian deaths, from Iraqi government figures, was 20 per cent down from March, when 1,861 civilians were killed. The figure for February was 1,645.

Dan Goure, a Pentagon adviser, confirmed that the use of the Samarra benchmark was common among military commanders. "If we get back to pre-Samarra levels, then that's a significant reduction in violence, especially sectarian violence, and will provide the momentum for further improvements."

The Ministry of Defence said Mr Campbell was speaking only in a personal capacity. "We are in agreement with the Americans, that it is too early to give an estimate of the impact of the troop surge yet," said a spokesman.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/20/wirq120.xml

[Dinner]

In retrospect the surge/escalation was always doomed to failure. The Pentigon said right off the bat that it would need 500,000 troops to invade and control Iraq but Cheney ignored the military experts and ordered them to go in with just 150,000 and then quickly cut it back to 100,000 despite it being obvious we weren't in control of the country. With that type of arrogance combined with the absolute failure to even start any meaningful reconstruction until a full year after the invasion we were destined to lose. We didn't have the manpower in place to force our control over the country and we alienated the people by Bush not fulfilling his promise of reconstruction so we could relay on their good will. In the end an escalation of just 20,000 was much to little much to late. It never had a chance of changing the tide and was just PR.

[Drake Tungsten]

That's not really what MtG was saying.

Yes it was. MTG was saying that I shouldn't make fun of Oerdin for being a hipster because Oerdin served in the military and I didn't, which is retarded.

[Dinner]

I've never claimed to be a hipster and instead just said I like Indie rock. You, with a bit of help from Asher, made up the rest.

Nice to see I'm not the only one you lie about though. I wish you'd be honest enough to give MtG credit where it is due though as Arrian and I have both pointed out what MtG said and meant but, as usual, you lie and distort everything. Good job, KuciDrakeDD.

[Flhaus]

Re: Re: Re: Bush Administration admits "surge" is a failure.

Originally posted by Oerdin


It says they haven't accomplished their goals but they're drawing down any way. Translation: We failed.

Get over it and accept the truth.

You should read the whole article and not put your own bias on it. They are drawing down on a more stable and sane footing due to the pressure from congress. The failure resides on the surrender side of the aisle. He is trying to satisfy them while achieving the objective. When your eggs are busted, you might as well make an omelet. This is leadership.

BTW - Not a personal attack, just a difference of opinion. I think the moderator can tell the difference. So tell "mom" if you want.

[Drake Tungsten]

I've never claimed to be a hipster and instead just said I like Indie rock.

And PBR. You're not fooling me with your weak denials.

Nice to see I'm not the only one you lie about though. I wish you'd be honest enough to give MtG credit where it is due though as Arrian and I have both pointed out what MtG said and meant but, as usual, you lie and distort everything.

I'm pretty sure that you're such a tool that you don't even realize how ironically hilarious it is for you to call me a liar in a thread you made that is nothing but a lie...

[Dinner]

You do realize the Republicans have enough votes to block anything the Democrats put up with Bush's veto right?

Surrender side? You really are clueless since it is actually the Republican members of Congress who have told Bush that unless things change radically soon they're going to have to vote against the war starting next May. Republican members of Congress up for election next year are practically crapping their pants believing that unless something is done about the war they're going to get the axe just like in the last election. These are guys who expected life time secure positions due to gerrymandering (both sides do that) but the war and Bush's unpopularity (down in the 20's now) is putting them in jeopardy. Republicans in Congress have all pretty much told Bush that if by May 2008 (giving them half a year to campaign) if there isn't success or a substantial draw down then they'll vote with the Democrats to save their own skins.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

I've never claimed to be a hipster and instead just said I like Indie rock.

And PBR. You're not fooling me with your weak denials.

Idiot. I sometimes drink PBR because it is cheap and better tasting then BudMillerCoors. As I explained in the crappy beer thread before you went off on your moronic claims.

But hey! You just wouldn't be KuciDrakDD without the idiocy and moronic claims.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
It's sad to see what has happened to you. Reduced to defending a kneejerk position even other vets on this board think is a pile of ****. Man up and admit you overreacted or slink away and try to preserve some shred of the dignity you once had because right now you aren't worth my time dealing with anymore in this thread.

For the record, I don't necessarily disagree with Oerdin. In fact he makes good points.

I disagree with MtG's method of defense of Oerdin. If he had used the combat vet line to support the reasoning behind Oerdin's position, I could accept that.

I notice that he didn't even respond to what I posted, telling me he knows it's a crock of crap as well.

ACK!

[Flhaus]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
MtG: When you can explain why simply being a vet automatically confers an aura of respect in absence of anything else to actually deserve it

Your ****ing kidding .. right?