Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Some Perspective . . . .

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Some Perspective . . . .

    The following article is taken from The Advocate, May 22, 2007, p. 46

    "Just Another Day in Baghdad"
    Charles Karel Bouley

    The Virginia Tech massacre is a tragedy of epic proportions for those involved, and my heartfelt sympathies are with them. I cannot imagine the pain of losing loved ones in this fashion, and it serves as a constant reminder of the fragility of life.

    All over America on that day, people rushed to express their grief. Air Force One flew in not more than 24 hours after the event [where was Bush when Katrina hit?], and grown newscasters broke down crying during their reports.

    Please, people, a little perspective.

    First of all, this was an act of domestic terrorism by a U.S. resident destined to do harm. Planning, plotting, waiting a month to get another gun--this was no spontaneous rage.

    But as I sat and viewed the aftermath, all I envisioned was a university in Baghdad. CNN's Kyra Phillips recently interviewed an Iraqi instructor [one of the few remaining professors at the university] and his students. As she did, she flinched, because a bomb went off in the background. The students and teachers didn't move a muscle.

    She questioned them about their composure, and they said, We hear bombs every day, and pray they don't get too close--when they hit, we wonder, did our families get hurt? Will I return home to find someone I love dead? Will my house be there?

    Every day they go through this, walking by what could be improvised explosive devices on the way to class, listening to explosions as they study, going home to uncertainty. There are no bomb threats; there are bombs. There's no lone gunman; there is a vast array of killers.

    As for statistics, Iraq can expect at least 40 civilians to be massacred on any given day. After a massacre, no schools are closed for a day of mourning. No businesses shut down, no politicians stop their campaigns.

    What gives me great pause is that we are aiding this violence, in Iraq and stateside, yet we want so desperately to point the finger at someone else. On the news I hear contempt for the Virginia gunman and the anger in the parents' voices. I wonder what those voices sound like in Iraq--all the parents mourning for their children and looking for answers.

    Yes, the Virginia Tech massacre was a horrible incident. But imagine that scenario every day. That is the life we have given the Iraqis, and we wonder why they want us out. Imagine hearing on the news each day about a Virginia Tech. Each day, 40 or more dead. And then imagine if for four years.

    My heart goes out to the families of the Virginia Tech victims, but a large piece of it goes out to those in Iraq as well. And I bear the shame as a financier of some of the killing in Iraq, just as I bear the shame of living in a country that legalizes human-hunting devices. May future generations forgive us for creating such deplorable situations.
    A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.

  • #2
    I completely agree with that, until you get to the "...and we wonder why they want us out" part. I was never for the war, and I agree we have created a deplorable situation. But what would the effects of us leaving be? Sure, the anti-West people there want us out, and I'm sure a large swathe of ordinary Iraqi's want the US out for pride reasons, it being their country. However what is going to reduce violence the most? Sure, if we leave, there's less hatred, but there's also far less security forces to keep the peace. Indeed, it sickens me when someone like Hillary, who voted for the war in Iraq, argues that we need our troops out as the cost in American lives and taxpayer money is too high. Excuse me?! If you decide to invade a country, you have a moral obligation to not leave it in complete disarray. How many Iraqi's will die if the US just pulls out? Given that the war has happened, leaving before Iraq has the ability to look after its own security issues and keep its own peace would be a more morally dubious act than going in in the first place.

    Cost could be cut by swapping contracted security forces paid over 10 times as much as US soldiers for normal US forces. Moreover, I'm sure the British have done it more efficiently, as while I realise the US has far more troops there, it's cost the US well over $400bn yet even including Afghanistan as well, the UK has spent less than £6bn in total on foreign policy.

    But really, that's all immaterial, IMHO. We decided to go in, we decided to start this war. Yes, it is good to remove a brutal dictator, but couldn't we at least have waited until after we'd finished with Afghanistan properly and managed to use these resources to really stop terrorism? He wasn't an imminent threat. But we started this war, and we have a duty to not leave a vaccuum of power and a lack of any ability to keep the peace.

    So really, Iraq comes down to a simple solution:
    Get a broad spectrum of Middle-East experts to help advise on how best to improve security and help the Iraqi's do so,
    Then put in the troops, the training, and help the Iraqi's become self-sufficient,
    Then pull troops out.

    Yes, Bush's policies have and seem to still be failing, but that doesn't mean it's time to cut and run. It means we need to look at what is best for Iraq. Not what is best for the US taxpayer. That's what perspective means for me - understanding that it's time to do what's best for Iraqi's and save as many lives as possible, not start talking about the US cost and the need to cut and run.
    Smile
    For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
    But he would think of something

    "Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker

    Comment


    • #3
      What gives me great pause is that we are aiding this violence, in Iraq and stateside, yet we want so desperately to point the finger at someone else.
      We aid in the Iraqi on Iraqi violence? Our presence there makes the Shia hate the Sunni more, and visa versa? If anything we absorb some the the violence that would be visited on the normal Iraqi, and outright stop alot of it.

      Iraqi on Iraqi ethnic hatred has nothing to do with us.
      "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Patroklos


        Iraqi on Iraqi ethnic hatred has nothing to do with us.
        Considering America supported Saddam's regime, thus empowering the Sunni minority for decades allowing them to brutalize the Shia and Kurdish population, I'd say the ethnic hatred has everything to do with us.
        To us, it is the BEAST.

        Comment


        • #5
          Really, we are the people behind the Sunni domination of Iraq? What internal pressures did we influence within Iraq to make this happen? When exactly did the Sunni minority take over there?
          "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

          Comment


          • #6
            You made the mess, you clean it up. Maybe it will make you think twice next time the opportunity comes around.
            "Ceterum censeo Ben esse expellendum."

            Comment


            • #7
              That is what people say. But I am not at all sure if us staying will help clean up the mess...

              JM
              Jon Miller-
              I AM.CANADIAN
              GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

              Comment


              • #8
                You made the mess, you clean it up. Maybe it will make you think twice next time the opportunity comes around.
                Again, what does America have to do with Iraqi interethinic group hatred?
                "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by dannubis
                  You made the mess, you clean it up. Maybe it will make you think twice next time the opportunity comes around.
                  I was unaware that we both caused the Shia/Sunni divide and set up Al Quaeda!

                  I guess the U.S. really is the root of evil in the world.


                  Let's not forget that Sadaam killed 3 million people to keep the religious rivalry in check in Iraq. If we can work through that well enough to put a coalition democracy in place with some secular guarantees then it will be well worth it in terms of both stability and the effort we have put into it.

                  The current lack of understanding of the stakes by the US democrats and the totally inept running of the war by the US republicans does not diminish the importance of being succesfull in Iraq.

                  Yes...it is a mess, but one that has been a long time coming. If we had not intervened, then it would probably have happened once the Hussein family fell from power...just with the Iranians calling the shots instead of us.
                  "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by PLATO
                    I was unaware that we both caused the Shia/Sunni divide and set up Al Quaeda!
                    The latter wasn't an Iraq issue before, and the former was find under Hussein. What dannubis means, I think, is that in invading Iraq, we created a mess that wasn't there before. Sure, we removed the mess of Hussein, but that doesn't lessen the responsibility to not leave a bigger mess in its place.

                    Originally posted by PLATO
                    Let's not forget that Sadaam killed 3 million people to keep the religious rivalry in check in Iraq. If we can work through that well enough to put a coalition democracy in place with some secular guarantees then it will be well worth it in terms of both stability and the effort we have put into it.
                    Yes, but that doesn't contradict dannubis' point at all. The point is that we made the mess, in terms of invading Iraq, and so have a responsibility to clean it up.

                    Originally posted by PLATO
                    The current lack of understanding of the stakes by the US democrats and the totally inept running of the war by the US republicans does not diminish the importance of being succesfull in Iraq.
                    Exactly!

                    Originally posted by PLATO
                    Yes...it is a mess, but one that has been a long time coming. If we had not intervened, then it would probably have happened once the Hussein family fell from power...just with the Iranians calling the shots instead of us.
                    Perhaps, but that doesn't lessen the need to finish what we've started now.

                    What I'm trying to get at is that I don't think dannubis necessarily disagrees with what you're saying. I agree with his comment, and with yours - we need to clean it up.
                    Smile
                    For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
                    But he would think of something

                    "Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I don't think we need to clean up anything, THEY need to clean it up. We removed a dictator oppressing, to different degrees, all groups in Iraq.

                      They started killing each other, so while yes foreign fighters are our mess, any inter ethnic conflicts are soley on the heads of Iraqis. They had a golden opportunity and instead of using in wisely they decided to kill each other. Understandable to some maybe, but not any less their fault.
                      "The DPRK is still in a state of war with the U.S. It's called a black out." - Che explaining why orbital nightime pictures of NK show few lights. Seriously.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I would be all for them cleaning up their mess if they were left to it Patroklos. The problem is that Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and al Qaeda all have pretty relevant stakes in the outcome. It is likely that one of these entities would end up "cleaning up the mess" in their favor. With the possible exception of the Saudis, that is unlikely to be a clean up in our favor or in the favor of overall ME and world stability.
                        "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Patroklos
                          I don't think we need to clean up anything, THEY need to clean it up. We removed a dictator oppressing, to different degrees, all groups in Iraq.

                          They started killing each other, so while yes foreign fighters are our mess, any inter ethnic conflicts are soley on the heads of Iraqis. They had a golden opportunity and instead of using in wisely they decided to kill each other. Understandable to some maybe, but not any less their fault.
                          Well, small minorities of them decided to kill each other. Not only did we remove their dictator, we also removed the police, leaving ordinary Iraqi citizens without any enforcement of law and order. To just take away a country's entire law and order system and then say "hey, you can build it up better now" is not fair. If we were to leave now, we would be leaving Iraq in a worse situation than when we went in.

                          Remember we went in without any international mandate, purely out of our own free will, with our own task in mind. They didn't invite us or ask us, we invaded. It's like someone coming to fix the roof of your house, without you having asked them to, removing all the old, rotten tiles, having some trouble fixing new tiles and so going "actually we're going to leave it now". Sure, the old tiles were rotten, and we removed them, but we now have a duty to leave Iraq with at least some tiles in place.

                          Yes, there was already ethnic conflicts, but we removed the police stopping those from breaking out and now want to leave. Iraqi's having given up a golden opportunity, a minority of Iraqi's have. The majority of common Iraqi's didn't want us there and now have to deal with the violence we caused by removing the police. If you blow up a dam and flood a village, do you claim "it was the water that flooded you, the damn was bad so we removed it for you"? No. We caused the violence by removing the dam holding it back. It may have been a bad dam, but we have a responsibility to help build a new one before we leave.
                          Smile
                          For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
                          But he would think of something

                          "Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Drogue
                            But really, that's all immaterial, IMHO. We decided to go in, we decided to start this war. Yes, it is good to remove a brutal dictator, but couldn't we at least have waited until after we'd finished with Afghanistan properly and managed to use these resources to really stop terrorism? He wasn't an imminent threat. But we started this war, and we have a duty to not leave a vaccuum of power and a lack of any ability to keep the peace.

                            So really, Iraq comes down to a simple solution:
                            Get a broad spectrum of Middle-East experts to help advise on how best to improve security and help the Iraqi's do so,
                            Then put in the troops, the training, and help the Iraqi's become self-sufficient,
                            Then pull troops out.

                            Yes, Bush's policies have and seem to still be failing, but that doesn't mean it's time to cut and run. It means we need to look at what is best for Iraq. Not what is best for the US taxpayer. That's what perspective means for me - understanding that it's time to do what's best for Iraqi's and save as many lives as possible, not start talking about the US cost and the need to cut and run.
                            QFT. Drogue +1
                            The Apolytoner formerly known as Alexander01
                            "God has given no greater spur to victory than contempt of death." - Hannibal Barca, c. 218 B.C.
                            "We can legislate until doomsday but that will not make men righteous." - George Albert Smith, A.D. 1949
                            The Kingdom of Jerusalem: Chronicles of the Golden Cross - a Crusader Kings After Action Report

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              We didn't create the situation. Even now, the Iraqi president is imploring us not to leave.
                              I'm beginning to suspect they're all tied together, and the Iraqi president is causing more damage to "us" than the insurgents.
                              Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                              "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                              He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X