The pope seems to have lost his mind

[Kuken]

I like how he said that the Roman Catholic Church had purified them.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by BeBro
"Pope Nazi"

Yep, he didn't even try to get a religious dispensation even though several other people in his town got them and enrolling in a seminary counted as an automatic dispensation even in Nazi Germany. Instead Ratzinger just went with the flow even if that flow meant putting on a Nazi uniform and Zieg Hieling with the rest of them.

Of course my main complaint with Ratzinger isn't what he did in WW2 and instead it is how he took a central part in shielding pedophile priests from being sentenced for their henious sex crimes against innocent children. The man was THE central figure in reassigning priests and even recalling many of them to the Vatican to prevent them from serving time for their sex crimes against innocent children. Ratzinger has always been scum and will always be scum. The Catholic Church lost any moral authority when they made that piece of **** Pope.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Oerdin

Yep, he didn't even try to get a religious dispensation even though several other people in his town got them and enrolling in a seminary counted as an automatic dispensation even in Nazi Germany. Instead Ratzinger just went with the flow even if that flow meant putting on a Nazi uniform and Zieg Hieling with the rest of them.

Not that I'm a big fan of him, but IMO he wasn't really a nazi.

Wiki says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Be...2.80.931951.29

Following his fourteenth birthday in 1941, Ratzinger was enrolled in the Hitler Youth — membership being legally required after December 1939[4] — but was an unenthusiastic member and refused to attend meetings[5]. His father was a bitter enemy of Nazism, believing it conflicted with the Catholic faith. In 1941, one of Ratzinger's cousins, a 14-year-old boy with Down syndrome, was killed by the Nazi regime in its campaign of eugenics. In 1943 while still in seminary, he was drafted at age 16 into the German anti-aircraft corps. Ratzinger then trained in the German infantry, but a subsequent illness precluded him from the usual rigours of military duty.

That doesn't sound like a die-hard Hitler fanboy to me. But the title nazi pope sounds funny

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Oerdin
The Catholic Church lost any moral authority when they made that piece of **** Pope.

As if the CC had needed Pope Nazi to lose its moral authority. Pius IX-XII, anyone? Pius IX and XI are my favs!

[Heresson]

Pius XII was a good pope. What's about Pius XI?
Pius IX, if he is the one that thought railways are highways to hell, well, he was wacky.

[Apocalypse]

With regards to right, for one the Catholic Church didn't want them to be slaves.

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Heresson
Pius XII was a good pope.

The world seems to be divided about him. While he was not the monster they made of him in the 1960s, his take on Fascism was to keep his mouth shut, while towards the other side he was very vociferous.

What's about Pius XI?

Do you really have to ask? Pius XI was TEH fascist. Although his relationship with Mussolini was not always without frictions, when Mussolini started to rule into the Vatican, he didn't hesitate to call him a man sent by Divine Providence once, just like he supported Franco and the Austrian dictatorship under Dollfuß.

Pius IX, if he is the one that thought railways are highways to hell, well, he was wacky.

He's also the one who proclaimed papal impeccability. He threatened Catholics with excommunication for participating in elections, sanctified the kidnapping of a Jewish infant, was steadfast against any form of religious freedom etc.
A clear case for being beatified - which he finally was by JPII...

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Apocalypse
With regards to right, for one the Catholic Church didn't want them to be slaves.

THe Spanish Crown neither.

[Patroklos]

How does being a drafted member of an anti-aircraft unit=nazi?

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III


The world seems to be divided about him. While he was not the monster they made of him in the 1960s, his take on Fascism was to keep his mouth shut, while towards the other side he was very vociferous.

and why not? Communists openly fought with christianity, and put that into practice, so there was little risk situation could deteriorate. Also, less catholics under communists, and bigger danger of taking over Europe (from inside, that is). Again, catholic condemnation of fascism was done by the previous pope, and condemning it during the war could easily be used by Hitler as a "stab in the back" or whatever, and noone would profit from that, catholics or jews. Both would loose, jews more, because those hidden by clergy or by help of clergy would be doomed.

Do you really have to ask? Pius XI was TEH fascist. Although his relationship with Mussolini was not always without frictions, when Mussolini started to rule into the Vatican, he didn't hesitate to call him a man sent by Divine Providence once, just like he supported Franco and the Austrian dictatorship under Dollfuß.

and? You can not expect him to judge (ITALIAN!) fascism the same as we judge fascism today, after the horrible deeds of (mostly GERMAN) fascists...
Communism was the main danger for Europe and christianity.

He's also the one who proclaimed papal impeccability. He threatened Catholics with excommunication for participating in elections, sanctified the kidnapping of a Jewish infant, was steadfast against any form of religious freedom etc.
A clear case for being beatified - which he finally was by JPII...

Oh, true. Well, what were the explenations for the beatifaction?

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Heresson
and why not? Communists openly fought with christianity, and put that into practice, so there was little risk situation could deteriorate. Also, less catholics under communists, and bigger danger of taking over Europe (from inside, that is). Again, catholic condemnation of fascism was done by the previous pope, and condemning it during the war could easily be used by Hitler as a "stab in the back" or whatever, and noone would profit from that, catholics or jews. Both would loose, jews more, because those hidden by clergy or by help of clergy would be doomed.

So, you basically say that in order to avoid persecution it was OK to just shut up to fascism, while communists are Christian-eaters anyway, so one had to voice the dissent... I'm sure the Communists would have also been a bit more friendly if the Catholics had not taken the rhetoric lead among anti-Communists...
And beside that, this kind of utilitaristic ethics just doesn't seem to fit with the Catholic Church.

and? You can not expect him to judge (ITALIAN!) fascism the same as we judge fascism today, after the horrible deeds of (mostly GERMAN) fascists...

Do you have any idea about how brutal and primitive Mussolini's regime was? I would expect any Christian to immediately and strongly speak out against such barbarity, esp. the Pontiff with all his power in a Catholic country. But no, there was a common ground: anticommunism, so who cares about peanuts?

Communism was the main danger for Europe and christianity.

Right, where is my head? How could I think about Hitler?

Oh, true. Well, what were the explenations for the beatifaction?

It was basically for being Pope of the 1st Vaticanum. The decision was not especially well received also by many Catholics, not just critics from outside.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III

So, you basically say that in order to avoid persecution it was OK to just shut up to fascism, while communists are Christian-eaters anyway, so one had to voice the dissent... I'm sure the Communists would have also been a bit more friendly if the Catholics had not taken the rhetoric lead among anti-Communists...

I believe originally catholics tried to do that, because they thought (soviet) communists would not shate orthodox bias against them.

And beside that, this kind of utilitaristic ethics just doesn't seem to fit with the Catholic Church.

the heritage of Enlightement poisoning Teh Church
seriously, RCC works on Earth, so it is likely to be inclined to earthly means and politics.

Do you have any idea about how brutal and primitive Mussolini's regime was?

It couldn't have been worse than USSR

I would expect any Christian to immediately and strongly speak out against such barbarity, esp. the Pontiff with all his power in a Catholic country. But no, there was a common ground: anticommunism, so who cares about peanuts?

it was the lesser evil. Of course, one could expect the church to act according to its values precisely, but when it does, it gets even more criticised (abortion etc).
Also, democracy was still a fresh thing. Today it's obvious for us.

Right, where is my head? How could I think about Hitler?

Before being pope, he was nuntius in Poland. He was a brave man, allegedly he was the only ambassador of a foreign state but Turkey, that remained in Warsaw during the battle of Warsaw. I'm sure that influenced him.
Also, he did condemn nazism and fascism in Mit Brennender Sorge or whatever.

It was basically for being Pope of the 1st Vaticanum. The decision was not especially well received also by many Catholics, not just critics from outside.

I think it is a mistake.

[Last Conformist]

Meh. By Vatican standards, that´s a sane and tactful remark.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Heresson
the church actually fought for the right for the Indians. And it's common to believe everyone silently longs to God, so what's the matter? That is not very tactuful, but nor is bashing him for it.

Yeah, you silently long to be a pimp.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Heresson
the church actually fought for the right for the Indians. And it's common to believe everyone silently longs to God, so what's the matter? That is not very tactuful, but nor is bashing him for it.

Is that kind of like Bush fighting for the rights of Iraqis? Why would the church have to fight for their rights? Why not leave them be?