Why I'm not voting democrat in 2008...

[Impaler[WrG]]

MtG makes a good point and I think the solution is for the government to correct the 'market failure' here as thats clearly a contributing to a high gas price.

They simply need to change the factors which are causing the market to supply too few refineries, the simplest solution seems to me to be to set up a tax structure in which the companies either build refineries and supply gasoline at low markup or else they see their windfall profits taxed away. At the same time government needs to act as a neutral mediator between companies to negotiate and plan nation wide capacity increases in such a way that the market remains on an even keel, neither suffering from a glut or shortage.

And of course at the same time we need to be weening our society off Oil in general to cushion the increasingly severe shortages were beginning to face.

[Dinner]

It does seem like we need to do something to introduce more competition to the oil refining and distribution business. We need more refineries owned and controlled by different companies and those refineries need to be able to distribute their gas through independent chains of gas stations instead of via major brand stations owned (or effectively controlled by) big oil.

How do we get more refineries and independents? That's the hard part. New companies would have a devil of a time getting insurance for their new refineries due to their lack of a track record while if foreign oil companies came in they'd still face the NIMBY crowd. One thing is sure and that is the market doesn't seem to be working efficiently on this aspect; prices are currently sky high and refiners are making record profits but we're not seeing any new entrances to the refining business like we're taught in Econ 101. The high profits are supposed to attract new investment but US refining capacity continues to go down and has been for decades. What gives? What's the barrier to new players entering the field?

[MRT144]

Originally posted by Oerdin
It does seem like we need to do something to introduce more competition to the oil refining and distribution business. We need more refineries owned and controlled by different companies and those refineries need to be able to distribute their gas through independent chains of gas stations instead of via major brand stations owned (or effectively controlled by) big oil.

How do we get more refineries and independents? That's the hard part. New companies would have a devil of a time getting insurance for their new refineries due to their lack of a track record while if foreign oil companies came in they'd still face the NIMBY crowd. One thing is sure and that is the market doesn't seem to be working efficiently on this aspect; prices are currently sky high and refiners are making record profits but we're not seeing any new entrances to the refining business like we're taught in Econ 101. The high profits are supposed to attract new investment but US refining capacity continues to go down and has been for decades. What gives? What's the barrier to new players entering the field?

GODDAMNIT, READ THE ENTIRE THREAD!

[Drake Tungsten]

Just ignore him, MRT. It's better for your sanity.

[b etor]

there is no one good running
i can't vote anyway tho.

[MRT144]

Originally posted by b etor
there is no one good running
i can't vote anyway tho.

even if you could you wouldnt though.

[Dinner]

BTW one of the reasons Democrats like to take pot shots at the oil industry is because most of the oil PAC money goes to Republicans therefor the hacks believe they have nothing to lose by appealing to populist sentiments. It never seems to help the hacks but it's a generic feel good piece of filler material for party web sites like the one linked in the OP. If people were serious about gas prices then they'd try doing a combination of decreasing demand (via higher CAFE requirements) and increasing production (by making it easier to build new refineries). We've also seen a lot of consolidation in the refining business and most of the independents are now gone as the majors have snapped them up. If we're serious about decreasing prices then we also have to be serious about introducing new competition by either building new independently owned refineries or forcing the existing players to not hold such dominate roles.

A second issue is although nation wide the US has a fair number of refining companies each companies has a pretty set geographic range and there is very little overlap between the various players. Rather then letting companies get localized monopolies, where most of the refining capacity in a region is controlled by one company, we should be forcing them to trade refineries in different regions so that each region has at least two major refining competitors.

[b etor]

Originally posted by MRT144
even if you could you wouldnt though.

why would i waste my duty to vote?

[MRT144]

Originally posted by b etor

why would i waste my duty to vote?

there arent any options you agree with?

[Donegeal]

Originally posted by b etor

why would i waste my duty to vote?

Its a right here in the US (or at most a responsability). It is a duty in Australia where people are required to vote.

[Odin]

Originally posted by MRT144
when does adding capacity ever benefit anyone in the business?

Exactly, they have no incentive to increase refining capacity (complaining about environmental regulations and NIMBYism is just for PR, so people think Big Oil wants to increase capacity even though they don't) because it would cause prices to fall and thus hurt profits.

The whole industry is a f*cking cabal taking advantage of the fact that the demand for oil is inelastic, nationalize it.

[Dinner]

How about we find a way to subsidize new entrants so that they aren't at such a disadvantage compared to the established refineries? There has to be a way to lower the risks by changing regulations or by using subsidies (either cash or tax breaks).

[b etor]

write-in! b etor!!

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Clause 5:

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

Looks like all prerequisites are met.

[b etor]

a bunch of people vote for Donald Duck even tho he's too old. i think i have a good shot at winning.