Is religion an imposition on society, or a product of a society's evolution?

[Fake Boris]

Huh... I should read it in Sanskrit (or whatever) ?

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Huh... I should read it in Sanskrit (or whatever) ?

It sounds much more "natural" when read in one of the Indic languages, but K.M. Ganguly has done a fine job of translating it. The link I posted was of his translation. I must warn you - it's very big.

[Fake Boris]

BTW, if you're strangled for cash, Pekka's got a deal for you.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
BTW, if you're strangled for cash, Pekka's got a deal for you.

Uhh...

What?

[LordShiva]

[Jon Miller]

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/lawrole.html

http://en.bibleinfo.com/topics/topic.html?id=162

Originally posted by CyberShy
Yes, there is a law, and that law is there to show that there are sins. But if a person admits he's a sinner, gives his live to Jesus, then he dies with Jesus and rises with Jesus, and is free of the law (Romans 7, first part)

Christians are supposed to live through love, guided by the Holy Spirit. Not by written laws. The letter kills.

Show me!

Ps. Jesus didn't say that he fulfilled the 'ceremonial' laws, he said he came to fulfill the law. Which means that he totally lived up to the laws (all laws) of Moses. If we are 'in' him, then that means that we are rightious because of him, and.

You are missing the points of these statements. We are not saved by the law, this is true, but we should still obey it. Not being under the law means that we aren't saved from following the law. It doesn't mean we shouldn't obey it. In fact, it is only through Christ Jesus that we can obey the law. Basically the issue is that you are understanding Romans to say that the law was done away of, when it says no such thing. Not being under the law means not having the pay the consequences for noncompliance, not that the law is no longer valid.

Romans 6:
"14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."

1 John 5:
"1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

John 15:
"10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."

1 John 2:
"1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him."

John 14:
"15 If ye love me, keep my commandments."

There was a more clearer explanation that I am looking for. The ceremonial law pointed to Christ's first coming. That was the whole point of offereings/etc. Christ was our lamb, and so we no longer need to sacrifice lambs in the temple.

Jon Miller

[Robert]

John,

You are missing the points of these statements. We are not saved by the law, this is true, but we should still obey it. Not being under the law means that we aren't saved from following the law. It doesn't mean we shouldn't obey it.

I know that that's a common way to explain these things. The church I'm a member of says the same thing. But nowhere in the Bible does it tell us this! The commandments you quote below talk about the commandment to love each other, I'll come to that later.

Basically the issue is that you are understanding Romans to say that the law was done away of, when it says no such thing.

No, not the law was done away of. We are done away of the law. The law is still in existance for those who didn't die with Jesus, and didn't ressurect with him in the new life. (Romans 7)
There are no laws in the new life. The laws apply to the old life.

Romans 7:6
"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

It says we should serve God in the new way of the Spirit! Not in the old way of the written code.
This is not about not being saved by the law, this is about not serving God (thus: living) through the law. I think it's pretty clear.

And if you read the example Paul uses, of the married woman who's bound to the law of marriage, but is released of that law because of the dead (of her partner). This example doesn't try to tell us: "The woman is released from the law, but still must live up to it by not marrying anyone else.", no, it tells us that the woman can marry someone else again, she's not bound by the law, and so do we not have to live up to the laws of Moses, because those laws were for our former lives, and not for our current life, the new (eternal) life with Jesus.

Not being under the law means not having the pay the consequences for noncompliance, not that the law is no longer valid.

The law is still valid, but not for those who are in Jesus. It's valid for those who want to safe themselves, they can safe themselves by keeping the law. And they will be judged according to the law. That's why we can't say that the law isn't valid anymore.

I'm under the dutch laws, but if I move to Germany I'm not under the dutch laws anymore. That doesn't mean that the dutch laws aren't valid anymore. They're valid for everyone that's in The Netherlands. The German laws are valid to me though.

So is it with a christian, he traveled from the old life to the new life (died and raised with Christ), and is not under the laws of the old life, but under the laws of the new life. Those laws are the laws of the Spirit, written in our hearts (Hebr 8), the laws of love. Not from outside (written code) but from within.

The dutch laws and the german laws have a lot in common, in both laws it's not allowed to murder, in example. The laws of the Holy Spirit (the law of love) have a lot in common with the laws of Moses (you can still not murder), that doesn't mean these laws are the same.

Romans 6:
"14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."

yes, we can still sin, we can sin against love, against the laws of the Holy Spirit.

1 John 5:
"1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

You quote 1 John 5, 1 John 4, that preceeds the part you quote, tells us what this commandment is:

1Jo 4:21 And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

When 1 John 5 talks about 'the commandment' it's the commandment of love. (as it ALWAYS is in the gospel of john / the epistel of john)

1 John 2:
"1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him."

Same here: 2 john 1:6 (right after the part you qouted) says:
"And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love."

Again the commandment is that we walk in love.

John 14:
"15 If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Further Jesus says:
Jhn 15:12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

That's all part of the same 'speech' by Jesus about his commandment. And his commandment is love.

There was a more clearer explanation that I am looking for. The ceremonial law pointed to Christ's first coming. That was the whole point of offereings/etc. Christ was our lamb, and so we no longer need to sacrifice lambs in the temple.

It does all point to Jesus, but the first and major task of the commandments is to show that we are sinners. (Romans 7)
We were under the law till Jesus came (Galatians)

In Acts 15 the apostles agree that all the christians have to live up to are no adultry, not eating blood-meat, not eating meat that was sacrificed to the idols. And the last 2 rules were more to satisfy the Jewish christians, because Paul later says that it's fine to eat meat that's been sacrificed to idols.

Nowhere in the new testament are we told to obey the laws of Moses. Laws that were never given to the non-jews anyway!

We must not let ourselves be guided by laws, but by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8)

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by CyberShy

Christianity, in example, doesn't come with a Code of Laws, other then "Love God above all and the other as yourself".

You mean except for the Jewish laws, which Jesus as a good Jew refers to ?

"Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law [the Torah] or the Prophets,"... " I tell you solemnly, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot, not one little stroke, shall disappear from the Law until its purpose is achieved."

[Jon Miller]

Once more you are misreading it. It is refering to not being saved by following the letter of the law. Then right afterwards it talks about the law being what convicts us of sin.

I can tell you that I am saved, but that I still sin.

Jesus discussion of the commandments of God was before His death. Which shows that there has been no change of commandments that came about at His death.

Additionally, commandments like the Sabbath, appear in the "Myth" before the Jews (in Genesis).

Love to God and love to man are the overarching themes, but these are seen the in 10 commandments (first 4 love to God, last 6 love to man).

I am worried that you are just trying to excuse yourself.

Jon Miller

[Robert]

Once more you are misreading it. It is refering to not being saved by following the letter of the law.

Then you must explain further what Romans 7:6 means when it talks about 'serving'. IMHO that part is not (like other parts) about being saved from the curse of the law (not sure if 'curse' is a good translation), it is about our daily life. We serve God in the Spirit, not in the letter.

Romans 7:6b we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Then right afterwards it talks about the law being what convicts us of sin.

That's in the past, the law convicted us of sin, then we tried to live a rightious life (by keeping the law) but we found out that we are unable to live up to the law (2nd part of Romans 7)

I can tell you that I am saved, but that I still sin.

So can I.
I sin against the laws of the Holy Spirit, against the laws of love.

Jesus discussion of the commandments of God was before His death. Which shows that there has been no change of commandments that came about at His death.

Sorry, I don't get what you mean here.

Additionally, commandments like the Sabbath, appear in the "Myth" before the Jews (in Genesis).

The 4th commandment is being slightly refered to in Gen1, but it's certainly not established in gen1. I think it has more to do with Moses writing/redirecting both Genesis and Exodus.

Love to God and love to man are the overarching themes, but these are seen the in 10 commandments (first 4 love to God, last 6 love to man).

Sure there are overlaps in the Thora and in the laws of the Holy Spirit. Like there are overlaps in the laws of Germany and Holland. They're still two different laws though.

I am worried that you are just trying to excuse yourself.

Excuse myself for what?
I don't believe that I'm free to do whatever I want. That there are no limits or something. I live under the laws of the Holy Spirit, he must guide me.

I'm more worried about people who say that the laws of Moses apply to all christians, and then start to alter them (sabbath/sunday, in example) or start to select laws from them that do and that don't apply.

I hope that you understand my view. I'm not believing that christians are without sin (far from that!) (unfortunately) or that christians can do whatever they want.

[Robert]

Originally posted by molly bloom


You mean except for the Jewish laws, which Jesus as a good Jew refers to ?

Molly, like I said before, I don't really feel like I want to debate with you any further.

But I'll refer to the debate I have with Jon Miller regarding this topic, in the case you're interested in how I came to the view that christians have no laws except the loves of love.

[Robert]

Jon?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by CyberShy


Molly, like I said before, I don't really feel like I want to debate with you any further.

Figures.

[Jon Miller]

Sorry, been busy. I might have time tomorrow.

Jon Miller