India vs Pakistan

[Pekka]

Not really, Rufus needs to say what he really means with the dominance thing. For example, in some aspects, China has always dominated the region, even during the years of communism.

[DRoseDARs]

Originally posted by aneeshm
I'm not advocating anything, actually, just telling you that the Indian state will do what it has to.

Um, that's how the Germans justified what they were doing in WWII.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Pekka
Not really, Rufus needs to say what he really means with the dominance thing. For example, in some aspects, China has always dominated the region, even during the years of communism.

Let's discuss that then. What benefits accrued to China during the communist era from it's dominance of the region? (assuming this 'dominance' was genuine)

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Geronimo


I don't think it works like that. Unless China is going to go the old school route of militarily conquering or threatening to conquer it's Asian neighbors I can't see it's influence increasing just because India and pakistan bloodied themselves really good. In fact if it's not careful it could lose influence in such a war if pakistan were perceived as the loser of the war.

I'm assuming the primary outcome of the war is that, win or lose, India would suffer economically from having fought it. India sees itself as a potential power someday, but it can ill-afford to be poorer than it is, and can ill-afford the gap between its economy and China's to grow even further.

[Pekka]

Geronimo, dude, I'm really busy now actually (working), so if you really want, I'll get back to this later on. But during the years of communism, they didn't, in my mind, benefit anything. Ok, they just set back themselves and now they have to work it up again. But they were a strong entity during those few decades none of the less. So, if we look at hundreds and hundreds of years, some thousands of years, few decades at the end don't matter to me at all, they have laid out their cultural dominance for a long time, they have been the hub of Asia for a long time, now of course we have more hubs.

However, China has influenced Asia so much during these centuries, that I don't see how we could ever justify saying that they weren't players even during hteir communist years. It simply is the place that has influenced the most and that is power in itself.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly


I'm assuming the primary outcome of the war is that, win or lose, India would suffer economically from having fought it. India sees itself as a potential power someday, but it can ill-afford to be poorer than it is, and can ill-afford the gap between its economy and China's to grow even further.

Ok. What does it mean to be a potential power someday when that day finally arrives? What good will it do India?

In any event what China craves above all doesn't appear to be power but wealth. It desperately wants enough wealth and growth to keep it's masses docile. A regional war in it's neighborhood is likely to threaten the economic health of the entire region and therefore threaten Chinas growth.

If China craves regional power it likely only craves it to the extant that it will serve it's need for economic growth.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Geronimo


Ah. I assumed aneeshm meant that the Indians who sided with pakistan 5th column style would be killed. I hadn't considered that he was advocating mass extermination of every last pakistani man women and child. Maybe he can clarify.

I was not advocating anything at all, just pointing out that the fifth column in India would most probably be exterminated with extreme prejudice.

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by DRoseDARs


Um, that's how the Germans justified what they were doing in WWII.

Did I ever justify the actions of the state? I'm just saying that it will do what it will do.

It's like predicting that if ABC fascist comes to power in XYZ country, he will do PQR to ethnic group LMN - in no way does it justify PQR.

[Pekka]

But if you live in a democracy, you are distancing yourself from the responsibility of the citizens. So did you vote for the fascist that will slaughter all muslims?

[dannubis]

I thnik it has been clearly established for a long time now our hindu nationalistic poster from the upper caste doesn't care too much about the lives of the indian people who believe in islam

[DRoseDARs]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Did I ever justify the actions of the state? I'm just saying that it will do what it will do.

The German people of that era themselves, private citizens, are greatly responsible for the Holocaust. Someone had to turn in the ones that were hiding, or rat out those helping them, or help move them to ghettos, or help destroy their homes and businesses; all "the state" did was organize it. I don't think you really understand just how disgusting what you said was. And "I was just following orders." was established during the Nuremberg Trials as an invalid defense of war crimes and crimes against Humanity.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Barnabas
How big is the muslims minority in India? Even if only 5 % of them decide to side with Pakistan during a war, it could give India serious problems.

They won't, though. Indian Muslims (except for some of the ones in Kashmir) are no fans of Pakistan. There would be more Pakistanis siding with India (Balochis, Sindhis) or siding against Pakistan (Tribals) than vice-versa.

And the war would be over too quickly for the kind of pogrom that aneeshm thinks would happen. I don't mean this in a chest-thumping way, but India's economic and military advantage over Pakistan would end the war in a week or two. If they do manage to lob a nuke or two, we'd come out with a bloody nose, but they'd be dismembered.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by LordShiva


They won't, though. Indian Muslims (except for some of the ones in Kashmir) are no fans of Pakistan. There would be more Pakistanis siding with India (Balochis, Sindhis) or siding against Pakistan (Tribals) than vice-versa.

And the war would be over too quickly for the kind of pogrom that aneeshm thinks would happen. I don't mean this in a chest-thumping way, but India's economic and military advantage over Pakistan would end the war in a week or two. If they do manage to lob a nuke or two, we'd come out with a bloody nose, but they'd be dismembered.

would the Sindis really side with India? I understand the Baluchis would.

As for tribals, Im assuming the most likely scenario for a war is somekind of takeover of Pakistan by fundies-MMA-ISI-Hamid Gul, either with or without Pervs cooperation. In that circumstance Id assume the Pashtuns would support the Paki govt, despite India's fond memories of Agha Khan.

Of course in that situation, Im also assuming India would have strong support from the US, from Kharzai, and perhaps from some of the secularist Punjabis in Pakistan (depending on Indias announced post-war plans) and that China might be too embarrassed to openly support Pakistan.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DRoseDARs


The German people of that era themselves, private citizens, are greatly responsible for the Holocaust. Someone had to turn in the ones that were hiding, or rat out those helping them, or help move them to ghettos, or help destroy their homes and businesses; all "the state" did was organize it. I don't think you really understand just how disgusting what you said was. And "I was just following orders." was established during the Nuremberg Trials as an invalid defense of war crimes and crimes against Humanity.

let me rephrase this for you.

If in any counrty X, that had an ethnic minority Y, numbering P, of whom Q chose to take up arms against country X during a war, Q members of group Y would die.


I suggest this is probably close to true universally, and has little or nothing to do with genocide of an entire group, or the killing of civilians.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


would the Sindis really side with India? I understand the Baluchis would.

As for tribals, Im assuming the most likely scenario for a war is somekind of takeover of Pakistan by fundies-MMA-ISI-Hamid Gul, either with or without Pervs cooperation. In that circumstance Id assume the Pashtuns would support the Paki govt, despite India's fond memories of Agha Khan.

Of course in that situation, Im also assuming India would have strong support from the US, from Kharzai, and perhaps from some of the secularist Punjabis in Pakistan (depending on Indias announced post-war plans) and that China might be too embarrassed to openly support Pakistan.

Pakistani internal politics is quite perplexing. I'm not sure what the Sindhis would do, but they're traditionally not fond of Punjabi domination. I assumed Punjabi leadership in a war with India, mostly because it's the Punjabis who are the most anti-Indian. Alot of the fundamentalist whackos are Pashtun, but Pashtuns don't care about faraway India as much, IIUC.