Muslim group places bounty of of 5,00,000 Rs. on the head of author critical of Islam

[Arrian]

Actually, I'd be curious to know how a religious person defines "cult" vs "religion." I don't mean this in a nasty or arrogant way, but to me there doesn't appear to be a difference except for # of followers... Christianity no doubt would've been considered a cult in the early going, but as it grew & spread, that changed. It developed its own cults.

-Arrian

[Elok]

Originally posted by Arrian
Actually, I'd be curious to know how a religious person defines "cult" vs "religion." I don't mean this in a nasty or arrogant way, but to me there doesn't appear to be a difference except for # of followers... Christianity no doubt would've been considered a cult in the early going, but as it grew & spread, that changed. It developed its own cults.

-Arrian

Many people do use "cult" as a word for "minor religion I don't like," but I employ it to refer to movements such as Scientology, the Moonies, and the Branch Davidians of David Koresh. Groups which attempt absolute control over their members' lives, aggressively manipulate their thoughts and control what they hear, suck them dry of all their money and resources. Usually organized around a single leader whose word is absolute law, and obsessed with making new converts at breakneck speed by any means, fair or foul. Some of the Evangelical churches do seem to be acquiring cultlike characteristics of late--or at least to me they do--but most churches have boundaries.

[Arrian]

Yeah, that definition (loose as it may be) works for me. Particularly the quasi-deified cult leader and the sucking dry of money & resources.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
Yeah, that definition (loose as it may be) works for me. Particularly the quasi-deified cult leader and the sucking dry of money & resources.

-Arrian

that wouldnt apply to Jehovas witnesses though. It seems to be used there in regard to a breakaway group that radically reinterpretated the original faiths core beliefs, and are pretty fanatical about the central importance of those non-mainstream beliefs. Which is why I implied Christianity is to Judaism as JW is to Christianity. Numbers aside of course.


And we hardly evaluate faith traditions based on numbers of followers, as should be obvious

[Arrian]

that wouldnt apply to Jehovas witnesses though

No skin off my nose...

-Arrian

[Elok]

I have no personal experience with the JWs, but the stories I've heard indicate that they're at least a little cultish. For example, a priest once told me about a funeral he attended, the funeral of a JW convert from an Orthodox family. The JW mourners spent the entire reception badgering the kid's family members to convert, insisting that "he would have wanted it this way." They only quit after the priest rounded up all the non-JWs and had them stick with him; the sight of him made them extremely nervous. I can accept that the priest, being biased against them, might have exaggerated somewhat, but I don't think he made the whole thing up.

They're also listed alongside the Mormons as "suspect" on anti-cult websites like FACTnet, and I know their origins were extremely shady. Their founder had a criminal record as a con artist, and was once forced in court to confess that he'd lied about his past to win followers (such as his claim to have gone to seminary). I'll see if I can dig up a source for that...

EDIT: The information on them is surprisingly thin, compared to more prominent loonies such as the CoS. I can't find transcripts to support what I said, so I guess that's that. Still, www.factnet.org has a pretty good definition of 'cult' IMO.

[lord of the mark]

an interesting article on discussing Islam

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/013/404suxeo.asp?pg=1

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Elok
Groups which attempt absolute control over their members' lives, aggressively manipulate their thoughts and control what they hear, suck them dry of all their money and resources. Usually organized around a single leader whose word is absolute law, and obsessed with making new converts at breakneck speed by any means, fair or foul.

I'm not even ttrolling, but those characteristics strongly remind me of Jesus and the apostles. Or at least what little I know fo them.

[Elok]

I don't see how. Jesus was indeed deified, but he said "sell all that you have, and give the money to the poor," not "sell all that you have, and give the money to me, and while you're at it your salvation depends on your letting me bone your daughter." And the gospels imply that, aside from the Twelve, the original church was rather loosely structured. People just came to listen when the Messiah was in town.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Elok
I don't see how. Jesus was indeed deified, but he said "sell all that you have, and give the money to the poor," not "sell all that you have, and give the money to me, and while you're at it your salvation depends on your letting me bone your daughter." And the gospels imply that, aside from the Twelve, the original church was rather loosely structured. People just came to listen when the Messiah was in town.

I dont mean to troll, but if all we had on JW was their own stories about their founder, i doubt we'd know he was shady. Which is about the only cultlike thing youve got on him, plus that they proselytize pretty intensely.

[Barnabas]

Why is the USA fertile ground for so many new religions?, Mormonism, JWItnesses, those who handle snakes, those who are agaisnt medicine and only in reading the bible, I could go on, I just dont remember the names.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
Why is the USA fertile ground for so many new religions?, Mormonism, JWItnesses, those who handle snakes, those who are agaisnt medicine and only in reading the bible, I could go on, I just dont remember the names.

I can think of three reasons:

1) No state religion

2) A history of religious dissention and dessentors

3) Tax breaks

My favorite is the Church of the Most High Goddess. Worshipers would come in, give a donation to the High Priest, take the High Priestess into a back room where she'd perform certain "religous practices" on them. The cops said, "naw...that's still prostitution."

[Lord Avalon]

Originally posted by Zkribbler

My favorite is the Church of the Most High Goddess. Worshipers would come in, give a donation to the High Priest, take the High Priestess into a back room where she'd perform certain "religous practices" on them. The cops said, "naw...that's still prostitution."

Hmmm, haven't heard of them. I think they need to do more missionary work in my area.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Lord Avalon

Hmmm, haven't heard of them. I think they need to do more missionary work in my area.

I could make a "missionary" joke, but choose not to due to my overwhelming maturity.

LOTM, would you like me to apologize for the shortage of historical documents on Jesus, or allude instead to the *cough* "less biased" gnostic accounts? Yes, it's possible that Jesus was an ancient Jim Jones and all the surviving accounts to the contrary are BS. It's also possible that Socrates was really the crude, foulmouthed town drunk of Athens and all the stories of wisdom were later attempts to elevate his ramblings. In the absence of such revelations, I go with what information is available.

[Straybow]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
So its all about counting heads? Some denominations are growing because of higher birth rates, some because of active missionary programs in Africa. The number of Pentecostals is rising relative to the number of Catholics. Does that mean that every day Pentecostalism is becoming more mainstream and Catholicism less so?

Yes, Pentecostals are abandoning the more cultish aspects of their traditions and focusing more on what reaches the average American with the message of the Gospel. Same is true in South and Central America. Can't say much about Africa.

No, it isn't that RC is less mainstream in terms of core doctrine. Americans are less dogmatic and more choosey, not automatically falling in line with the parents' religion. In my church, which is technically Pentecostal but you'd not know by appearances, I'd guess about 25% of the members were raised RC. Including my pastor.

Thats interesting sociologically. And sociologically speaking, few Muslims would deny that you can take Kharzais position and still be a good mainstream Sunni muslim. Whether they are "authentic" in that belief is not a sociological question anymore.

But how many Muslims would deny that you can take the terrorists' positions and still be a good mainstream Sunni? That is the problem. As somebody said, "If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything."