Calderon tells Bush Mexico needs more

[EyesOfNight]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Bush is pro-amnesty, but he is not stupid enough to push it - it wouldn't fly politically and would harm the realistic proposals that will help our country.

Drix, the problem I have with your viewpoint is it's essentially identical to the European anti-semitic arguments in the late 19th/early 20th century. Except you don't suggest Mexicans eat our children I hope

Mexicans by and large do respect our laws, and I don't see why they should 'respect' our language. They should learn to speak it; certainly they need to in order to get a decent job in this country. But I hardly think Americans have any right to complain here; practically none of us speak other languages, and thus are annoying tourists and even more irritating immigrants when we emigrate. We put signs and government forms in Spanish (and Chinese, and Polish, and whatever language is needed) to enable the poorest citizens, who can't afford to take the time to learn the language properly.

This is why we have a government, to look out for the little guy. How does it hurt you to have signs and forms printed in Spanish? Does the language hurt your eyes? It costs little to nothing, far less than these people contribute to our economy and our tax base (and illegal immigrants pay plenty of taxes, even those that are not on payroll tax lists, through sales taxes and such).

A few Mexicans might break our laws to come over here; but not all of them by any measure, and implying that they as a group have no respect for our laws is like suggesting Americans have no respect for other countries' laws because of a few (hundred) bad eggs.

Frankly, illegal immigration is a case of supply and demand, and the fact that we don't have a legal way to deal with it is entirely the fault of folks like you who oppose Mexicans as a group and want them out of the country, instead of dealing with the fact that ... we have jobs that they fill, and without them our country doesn't run. We simply don't have enough people wanting the jobs they do, and an economy dies when it can't fill the lower end jobs. Our unemployment is a combination of non-job-seeking unemployment, and semi- to high-skilled unemployment. Add that to the fact that our unemployment rate is actually quite low, and nearly low enough to stifle growth, and you'll see why economists don't object to Mexican immigrants of any legality.

What amuses me even more, of course, are the legions of people who download music/movies/etc. illegally, jaywalk, speed, and such, while complaining about illegal immigration. In terms of harm to society, all of the above do more harm than illegal immigration (particularly piracy), yet are seen as "okay" by a lot of people, while of course illegal immigration is horrible and wrong and must be stopped RIGHT NOW.

:sigh:

First of all, since when do we need to speak the language of tourists? I plan on going to Japan and I plan on having the ability to speak Japanese before I go there. We don't have a government to look out for the little guy. Government exists to enforce laws, not to empower the little guy and look out for him. The creation of laws are there to protect equality. Again, not with the express reason of protecting the little guy. This is nothing more than big government loving liberal bull****.

It's also not about the fact that immigrants don't pay taxes, it's about the fact that it undermines our laws and capitalism. Corporations have taken advantage of illegal immigrants to shaft their wages and the competition. It's not even fair to illegal immigrants because they can't have the full protection of our laws. In addition, if you come to work in the US, you should speak our language. It is not our responsibility to post signs and do everything in a second language to accomodate immigrants...especially illegal ones.

Your statement about a few Mexicans breaking our law to come over here is laughable. It's not just a few. Apparently you haven't looked at the numbers lately. That's just pure Border Angel propaganda right there.

I'm not disputing that migrant worker labor is needed. I also don't see how you can argue that these migrant workers are incapable of doing it legally like everyone else.

Tell me you didn't just compare jaywalking with illegal immigration... I mean seriously, wow. You really are a member of Border Angels aren't you? Last I checked, downloading an MP3 isn't on the same level as an illegal immigrant sneaking into the country. You just assume all illegal immigrants are Mexican migrant workers. What a joke.

[SlowwHand]

Mexicans by and large do respect our laws, and I don't see why they should 'respect' our language. They should learn to speak it; certainly they need to in order to get a decent job in this country. But I hardly think Americans have any right to complain here; practically none of us speak other languages,

This is crap. Let's ignore the fact that English is the language of the world, but remember it's the language of the USA. You speak the local language or suffer the inconveniences. If they want to speak Spanish in a barrio, fine.

[Seeker]

"Yet Calderon has a more wonkish and less charismatic personality than his predecessor Vincente Fox, who like Bush, owned a ranch. "


Own a ranch?? Is that all it takes to be a 'cool' politician these days?

The Dems should thank Bush and Gore for lowering the bar for all future presidential candidates...

And if 'wonkish' means 'smart', isn't that a good thing? WTF does 'wonkish' mean anyway and how did it sneak into our language?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Bush is pro-amnesty, but he is not stupid enough to push it -

You base this on what exactly?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Border Angels

[DinoDoc]

Minutemen

[SlowwHand]

[notyoueither]

Relations between the two border countries have only grown worse since Bush signed a law calling for construction of more than 700 miles of new fencing along the long border the two countries share.

Calderon has lambasted the fence — a mix of physical and high-tech barriers. He likens it to the Berlin Wall, and argues that both countries need to improve Mexico's economy to lessen the desire to seek work in the United States.

Before their talks, Calderon had a tough message for Bush: The United States must do more to solve thorny issues of drug-trafficking and immigration.

He was gentler at Bush's side, but with the same message.

"We fully respect the right that the government and the people of the United States has to decide within its territory what will be best for their concerns and security," he said as he welcomed Bush. "But at the same time we do consider in a respectful way that" migration can't be stopped with a fence.
...
Security was extremely tight in Merida. Schools are closed. The area around the hotels where Bush and Calderon are staying is guarded by police and surrounded by metal barriers. Before Bush's arrival Monday evening, about 200 people marched through the streets, carrying Mexican flags and chanting "Bush is a murderer and he's not welcome!"

The irony is tastey.

[SlowwHand]

I disliked illegal aliens LONG before Bush.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by Drixnak


It's also not about the fact that immigrants don't pay taxes, it's about the fact that it undermines our laws and capitalism.

Erm, yes, right. Who's accusing me of exaggerating to make a point?

Your statement about a few Mexicans breaking our law to come over here is laughable. It's not just a few. Apparently you haven't looked at the numbers lately. That's just pure Border Angel propaganda right there.

The point is that you're making a general statement about an entire cultural group based on the actions of a smaller group (and it's a very small group compared to the total number of residents of Mexico, I'd add). You personally may not hold anything against Mexican legal immigrants - though I see evidence that's not true - but many who hold that opinion also hold it against legal immigrants, assuming the entire Mexican nationality (or even Hispanic ethnicity) are a bunch of no-good criminals. This is where racism comes from...

I'm not disputing that migrant worker labor is needed. I also don't see how you can argue that these migrant workers are incapable of doing it legally like everyone else.

Erm, because they can't do it legally, because we don't allow that many legal workers into the country, and we make it fairly hard for them to come in legally? Why would they pay hundreds of dollars - in many cases, years' savings - to come over illegally, if they could do so legally?

Maybe you've never personally known someone who was an illegal immigrant, but I have. Sixty five years old, he was the hardest worker in my store, even if not as technically apt as many of the youngsters he still tried to learn when he had the opportunity. He was an illegal immigrant in the late 1960s, and received his citizenship several years before the amnesty by taking and passing the citizenship exams.

He worked hard for forty years to support his family, eventually bringing his wife and children over (legally) after spending twenty years seeing them maybe once a year - often less - working to make enough money to support them and bring them over. He know has several successful children, each with their own family now.

Did he violate the law coming over illegally? Certainly. Was he someone with no regard for the law? Certainly not. He respected the law far more than most of the people who worked for me then, and far more than most of the people here. He had one choice to have a decent life, and took it. He didn't destroy our society, our capitalist society, or our way of life; he didn't take anything from anyone; he did jobs nobody else would. All to support his family and make a decent life for himself.

Capitalism, sir, is about making money, not about border walls. A true Capitalist would say, bring on the immigrants. Allow them to come work here, so we can get the best and cheapest labor available. Pass a law that lets them come over legally, and they will, by the thousands. Until then, they do the only thing they can to make a life for themselves.

Tell me you didn't just compare jaywalking with illegal immigration... I mean seriously, wow. You really are a member of Border Angels aren't you? Last I checked, downloading an MP3 isn't on the same level as an illegal immigrant sneaking into the country. You just assume all illegal immigrants are Mexican migrant workers. What a joke.

Um, no. I've never mentioned migrant workers. I live in Chicago, where we have exactly 0 migrant workers. However, from a legal standpoint, the culture of piracy prevalent in this country is far more damaging to "lawfulness" than illegal immigrants. On the one hand, you have people who have no legal chance to make a living for themselves trying their best to survive, while filling a niche that would otherwise go unfilled for society.

On the other hand, you have spoiled children (and spoiled adults) deciding they don't feel like paying for their entertainment, and deciding they're entitled to it freely, so they download it illegally instead of buying it. They then justify it by saying it 'doesn't hurt anyone' and that they shouldn't have to pay for it, or just don't want to.

So yes, I agree, illegal immigration is not on the same level as illegall downloading by any means.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Capitalism, sir, is about making money, not about border walls. A true Capitalist would say, bring on the immigrants. Allow them to come work here, so we can get the best and cheapest labor available.

How would that be different from a corporatist?

[Jaakko]

Translation of this thread:

DEY TAWK OUR JERRRRRBS!

[LordShiva]

[Whoha]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Capitalism, sir, is about making money, not about border walls. A true Capitalist would say, bring on the immigrants. Allow them to come work here, so we can get the best and cheapest labor available.

Alan Tonelson
Sunday, March 11, 2007

Here’s one that belongs in the “Now he tells us” category. After years of preaching that today’s version of globalization is inevitable and beneficial because only the highest quality companies survive, Jack Welch now is arguing that quality isn’t enough, either.

According to the former Chairman and CEO of General Electric recently, “Thirty years ago, rumbling began about the coming world marketplace where costs would migrate to the lowest bidder. Some companies put on blinders and insisted that their quality would prevent competition from the likes of Mexican and Asian factories. Eventually, of course, many of these companies got religion and changed their practices.”

We at GLOBALIZATION FOLLIES will forgive Welch for not revealing this insights before he and the rest of the outsourcing-happy American corporate establishment pushed NAFTA and other job-destroying trade deals through the U.S. political system. Still, there’s one problem that should bug everyone about these agreements and their effects: If most companies “get religion” and “migrate” to penny-wage countries for production, where will their stable customer base come from?

It’s easy of course for Welch to ignore this question. He’s retired. What excuse do our country’s working politicians have?

[LordShiva]

Free movement of goods, services, and people