The Evolution of Outer Space Aliens

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by DaShi


So he wasn't talking about insects?

It's not clear from his post. He starts out talking about insect respiration and then goes on to say "Likewise I don't think that an ant-sized critter could be inteligent. Their brains wouldn't have enough neurons." That's part of the reason I asked what you were referring to in your post about collective intelligence.

Originally posted by DaShi

And what would lead you to think this?

How about the fact that the human brain doesnt process at anywhere even remotely approaching the Bremermann's limit of computational speed for it's size. There's plenty of room at the bottom.

Furthermore network the little critters together with something faster than our nerve impulse propagation speed and I find it difficult to see why you assert that the response time of that collective intelligence would necessarily be significantly slower than any single intelligence.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Geronimo


It's not clear from his post. He starts out talking about insect respiration and then goes on to say "Likewise I don't think that an ant-sized critter could be inteligent. Their brains wouldn't have enough neurons." That's part of the reason I asked what you were referring to in your post about collective intelligence.

Wow. Ok.

How about the fact that the human brain doesnt process at anywhere even remotely approaching the Bremermann's limit of computational speed for it's size. There's plenty of room at the bottom.

There is a difference between computational speed and the speed of signals travelling through and between cells.

Furthermore network the little critters together with something faster than our nerve impulse propagation speed and I find it difficult to see why you assert that the response time of that collective intelligence would necessarily be significantly slower than any single intelligence.

And what could we network them with that is faster than a nerve impulse and also can compensate for the creatures moving around?

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by DaShi


Wow. Ok.




There is a difference between computational speed and the speed of signals travelling through and between cells.



And what could we network them with that is faster than a nerve impulse and also can compensate for the creatures moving around?

EM signals of some kind? Color changes can occur with about the same speed as jumping a synapse and resetting it in preparation for the next stimulus.

Keep in mind that the speed of nerve impulse propagation tops out at about 100 m/s whereas even the speed of sound at sea level is about 340 m/s. It's not that hard to come up with signaling mechanisms between individuals that will greatly exceed signal propagation speeds within the human brain.

[Lord Avalon]

Large insectoids would need to develop lungs.

If elephants were sentient, wouldn't they require even more food to power their brains? Perhaps they'd become omnivorous to get enough nutrients. Maybe develop hands at the end of their trunks for finer control of tools. First thing to invent? A better way to cool off. All that thought and tool-using effort would make them quickly overheat, no?

What about silicon-based life?

Could intelligent creatures evolve on gas giants? Something like a cross between a zeppelin and a jellyfish. Probably wouldn't be industrialized. A race of filosofers?

How do we know that ants aren't merely projections in our dimension of intelligent multi-dimensional beings?

[FrostyBoy]

Spore will reveal all!

[One_more_turn]

Silicon based life form could be a distinct possibility. Maybe we are the enablers of that life form.

[Lul Thyme]

Im mostly with Geronimo.
Most people are assuming very Earthlike conditions and using limits that are probably related to those conditions.
Im very open about what is possible in general.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by DaShi
I don't think you realize just how small bacterial cells are compared to animal cells.

I missed this part of your post because you accidentally left it inside the part of my post you were quoting.


I suggested the possibility of bacteria sized "neurons" precisely because they are so much smaller than neurons or eukaryotic cells in general. The idea being that a more compact brain might be possible simply by substituting prokaryotic sized cells in place of eukaryotic cells as the basic functional units that fill the role of neurons.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by One_more_turn
Silicon based life form could be a distinct possibility. Maybe we are the enablers of that life form.

Assuming bona fide silicon based life is possible I see no reason to exclude the possibility of naturally occurring exotic conditions favoring the spontaneous evolution of such life elsewhere.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Geronimo


I missed this part of your post because you accidentally left it inside the part of my post you were quoting.


I suggested the possibility of bacteria sized "neurons" precisely because they are so much smaller than neurons or eukaryotic cells in general. The idea being that a more compact brain might be possible simply by substituting prokaryotic sized cells in place of eukaryotic cells as the basic functional units that fill the role of neurons.

And my point is that a bacterial cell simply can't contain the DNA and machinery necessary to make the complex proteins involved in neuron function.

[Kuciwalker]

Are you so sure of that? You can get a bacterium to make pretty much any protein - as long as you don't want it to be making lots of other ones too.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by DaShi


And my point is that a bacterial cell simply can't contain the DNA and machinery necessary to make the complex proteins involved in neuron function.

Do you remember where you learned this?

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Are you so sure of that? You can get a bacterium to make pretty much any protein - as long as you don't want it to be making lots of other ones too.

it could make lots of other ones as well. This isn't often done because the objective is usually to obtain an easily purified product.

[Kuciwalker]

Well, the other reason is because they want as much energy as possible devoted towards construction of the other proteins.

I don't know where DaShi is getting his info, but I am doubtful that a bacterial cell could perform all of the tasks of any given eukaryotic cell - else, the eukaryotic cells wouldn't be as complex as they are.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Well, the other reason is because they want as much energy as possible devoted towards construction of the other proteins.

I don't know where DaShi is getting his info, but I am doubtful that a bacterial cell could perform all of the tasks of any given eukaryotic cell - else, the eukaryotic cells wouldn't be as complex as they are.

That's not at all clear. Do you believe that greater complexity only evolves as a consequence of selection for new capabilities?

Eukaryotic cells certainly have a long list of structures they possess or can possess which are not observed in prokaryotes. However, the list of capabilities they possess which prokaryotes lack would be much shorter and apart from the ability to be much larger every one of those exclusive eukaryotic capabilities would be debatable.

Part of the reason would be that prokaryotes simply duplicate the functions of those organelles by other means.