Diplomacy - US is still figuring out new ways not to.

[MrFun]

Ramo, are you not aware of the proportion of casualties that resulted from the Trail of Tears?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Victor Galis



Is the genocide currently happening? Does complaining about it now provide a material benefit? Does it cost us something? Forgive me for being highly cynical, but perhaps it isn't wise to further weaken attempts to control the chaos in Iraq (costing people lives now) in exchange for what essentially ammounts to pandering to a special interest in a few members' districts.

Now, if they actually cared about the genocide victims, if this were an ongoing genocide, then yes. If they had shown any interest in Darfur, maybe they'd be more credible. As it is, a handful of powerful congressmen have decided to insult Turkey for no reason.

Actually theres a growing concern about Darfur in congress.

Weakening attempts to control chaos in Iraq? see my discussion with Ramo.

Any material interests? Not directly no. Moral interests. Fighting genocide denial interests. Adolph Hitler himself cited the forgetting of the Armenian genocide in a speech. Would be genocidaires are quite aware of the worlds apathy toward genocide. I agree what we need to act on Darfur, and bring justice wrt to genocidaires who are still alive. But I think to complete the circle we need truth telling on this genocide as well.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Ramo

But it does. See the Iraq War Resolution, Military Commissions Act, the total lack of oversight on pretty much everything Dear Leader did, etc. The point ultimately is that without the consent of the Republican Congress, Dear Leader couldn't have ****ed up our foreign relations anywhere near the extent to which it currently has. And what the Dems are currently doing pales in comparison, to understate things, to the monumental run of malfeasance by the past two Congresses...

Those were requests of authorization by the executive who in almost the entirety of US history establishes foreign policy. You wanna blame the executive for foreign policy thats a fair cop, the legislative does not share nearly that same level of culpability considering the established historical precedent.This is an entirely different kettle of fish than the legislative acting in a fashion contrary to the executive as is now the case.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


Its not even telling the truth. It is simply saying nothing as it is an acknowledged history by all respectable historians. No need for the US to rub Turkeys nose in it.



Actually my point was quite the opposite. Time for the pals to get over their grievances as by now almost 3 generations have passed. You'll find my stances towards Israel typically sympathetic. Time for the temple to be built so that baby Jeebus can come down from the clouds.

getting over grievances =! accepting genocide denial.

BTW, if it didnt matter cause all historians acknowledge it, the Turks wouldnt be so upset at this.

[lord of the mark]

the words of Gerald Ford, naive idealist


Gerald Ford
Addressing the US House of Representatives.

Mr. Speaker, with mixed emotions we mark the 50th anniversary of the Turkish genocide of the Armenian people. In taking notice of the shocking events in 1915, we observe this anniversary with sorrow in recalling the massacres of Armenians and with pride in saluting those brave patriots who survived to fight on the side of freedom during World War I. - Congressional Record, pg. 8890

[lord of the mark]

is this man an enemy of the Turkish nation?

Mustafa "Ataturk" Kemal
Founder of the modern Turkish Republic in 1923 and revered throughout Turkey, in an interview published on August 1, 1926 in The Los Angeles Examiner, talking about former Young Turks in his country...

"These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse, from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule. "

Memory doesnt matter. Or does it?

Adolf Hitler
"Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians? "


An American who was there. Surely we owe to HIM to have the US govt tell the truth

"Henry Morgenthau Sr.
U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire Ambassador Morgenthau's Story, 1919

When the Turkish authorities gave the orders for these deportations, they were merely giving the death warrant to a whole race; they understood this well, and, in their conversations with me, they made no particular attempt to conceal the fact. . . . I am confident that the whole history of the human race contains no such horrible episode as this. The great massacres and persecutions of the past seem almost insignificant when compared to the sufferings of the Armenian race in "



Another naive idealist

Theodore Roosevelt
May 11, 1918, letter to Cleveland Hoadley Dodge

...the Armenian massacre was the greatest crime of the war, and the failure to act against Turkey is to condone it ... the failure to deal radically with the Turkish horror means that all talk of guaranteeing the future peace of the world is mischievous nonsense.


Another man unconcerned with US interests.

Ronald Reagan
April 22, 1981, proclamation

Like the genocide of the Armenians before it, and the genocide of the Cambodians which followed it, ... the lessons of the Holocaust must never be forgotten.

[Colon™]

Turkey will have to face up to the Armenian genocide regardless, if they're ever to join the EU. They may huff and puff a little, but it will dawn to them quickly enough this isn't worth losing Europe's and US' allegiance over. The ball is in their camp really.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by BeBro
While the genocide is not going on, human rights violations of some sort are still going in Turkey, for example when you're one that calls the events a genocide.....

What country are you from again?

[Ramo]

The trail of tears was an ethnic cleansing. There was apparently inadequate provision of supplies, which aggravated the situation, and some viciousness on the part of at leat one local official, but nothing comparable to what occured with the armenians.

The scale is different. But that's partially because there were a lot more Armenians in Anatolia than Cherokees in Georgia... But AFAIK, the dynamics were basically the same. Both groups were rounded up into concentration camps and marched off, inadequately prepared with supplies during both phases and harassed during the journey. By any measure, the Armenian genocide/ethnic cleansing/whatever was worse, but as I was saying, the difference is largely in scale...

Ramo, are you not aware of the proportion of casualties that resulted from the Trail of Tears?

Casualties? Nope. But I seem to recall that mortality was on the order of 25% of the population removed...

Those were requests of authorization by the executive who in almost the entirety of US history establishes foreign policy. You wanna blame the executive for foreign policy thats a fair cop, the legislative does not share nearly that same level of culpability considering the established historical precedent.

I doubt there's any historical precedence for the total deference showed by the Republican Congress to Dear Leader.

This is an entirely different kettle of fish than the legislative acting in a fashion contrary to the executive as is now the case.

You're right, it is an entirely different kettle. While this action has nearly no effect, the enablers in Congress allowed Bush to utterly destroy our foreign relations.

The point ultimately is not whether the subservient Republican Congress is more or less to blame than the Bush Admin. Rather, the point is that without said total sycophantic behavior by Congress, our foreign relations wouldn't be anywhere close to as bad a shape as they are right now.

So yeah, I'd definitely rather have Pelosi doing inconsequential mistakes like this than Boehner rubber stamping everything Bush does to damage our foreign relations...

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
What country are you from again?

Feel free to propose any resolutions on Germany

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by BeBro
Feel free to propose any resolutions on Germany

Sorry, I just found German complaints about Turkish speech laws funny.

[BeBMan]

You can label the events a genocide here without any probs. Similar for events of our own past.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by BeBro
You can label the events a genocide here without any probs. Similar for events of our own past.

Can you say that events weren't a genocide even certain events from your past?

[Ramo]

BTW, the Virginia legislature recently apologized for slavery (and also for mistreatment of native americans) I posted about that hear. Some of those who join you on the "realist" side of the armenian res were not too happy with the virginia resolution, either.

But we're not trying to stop a vicious cycle of ethnic cleansing in recently liberated Maryland, where Richmond is threatening to intervene against black separatists in DC...

Anyways, I think this is a mistake, but not a big enough mistake for me to actually care.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Can you say that events weren't a genocide even certain events from your past?

Sure. I just would have to face consequences.