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Yeah, that's it, yeah! What he said!
-Arrian
-Arrian
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grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood. -
So a rubber stamp carries the same level of culpability as independent acts of congress?
Does that logic apply to criminal cases as well?
I suppose we should up minimum sentencing for accessory to murder and the like to make sure it is in keeping with murder one."Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson
“In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy CarterComment
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Complaining about bad diplomacy and then asking for the Republicans back is pretty funny, sorry.
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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I didn't ask for them back. I asked for them to do nothing.
It is ironic however that one of the Dem talking points was how screwed up the Prez's foreign policy is only to have them needlessly antagonize Turkey. Dip****s the entire lot both parties."Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson
“In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy CarterComment
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grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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So a rubber stamp carries the same level of culpability as independent acts of congress?
Seeing as how Congress is an equal branch to the Prez, absolutely. Congress (specifically, the members of Congress who rubber-stamped Dear Leader's ****ing up of our foreign policy) is totally culpable.
Don't get me wrong. What the Dems are doing is stupid. But this is an insignificant drop in the bucket compared to the enabling by the Republican Congress of Bush's sheer decimation of our foreign relations."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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so Ogie, Arrian and Ramo are all agreed that its best to keep our mouths shut about genocide for the sake of Incirlik?
Im not saying youre wrong, im just troubled."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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Be Not Too Hard
Be Not Too Hard
Be not to hard, for life is short
And nothing is given to man
Be not to hard, when he's sold or bought
for he must manage as best he can
..., when he blindly dies
Fighting for things that he does not own
..., when he tells lies
For his heart is some times like a stone
..., for soon he'll die
Often no wiser than when he began
..., for life is short
And nothing is given to man
repeat
And nothing is given to man
Sung by Joan Baez"A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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1) Why would you be troubled so?
2) Was the event in question even a genocide?I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator RubioComment
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I'm curious that you're troubled. I thought you didn't like calling every ethnic cleansing that comes along a genocide. I'd be a lot more comfortable with the resolution denouncing the ethnic cleansing or some similar terminology. Considering that we want to do everything we possibly can to stop them from intervening in Kurdistan. As I was saying, pretty pointless, but not that big a deal..."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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No, that's not actually what I'm saying. I was just agreeing that politicians suck.
On the issue at hand...
This is a symbolic thing, is it not? The genocide/ethnic cleansing/other bad thing was done long ago, but Turkey refuses to acknowledge it, right? Forgive me, but I'm quite ignorant - that's the sum total of my knowledge about this.
"Staying quiet" in this case is, IMO, quite a bit different than staying quiet about, say, Darfur.
In the end, what is the purpose of this resolution? What will it acheive?
It has a clear downside - it will piss of the Turks. Now, perhaps pissing off the Turks is worth it. I'm not really sure that is the case (see above - ignorance).
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.Comment
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I think the endless debate about this is quite funny given the fact that the "creator" of the term had not only German warcrimes etc., but also specifically the Armenian case in mind when the term was coined.Originally posted by DinoDoc
2) Was the event in question even a genocide?BlahComment
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Was the event in question even a genocide?
Ethnic cleansing is the movement of a people from an area on a racial or ethnic basis.
Genocide is the murder of a significant portion of a people on an ethnic or racial basis.
When people are murdered en masse to encourage them to leave that clearly represents a potential grey area.
In the case of the Armenians, although many ended up simply removed, the number killed (even discounting for those who died simply as a side effect of expulsion) was very considerabe - rather more so than in Kosovo. And there were attacks on the expellees even as they were in transit, which IIUC did not take place in Kosovo. It looks rather more like a genocide than an ethnic cleansing. IIUC the only issue of dispute is whether the murders were centrally planned or not. The Young Turks never had a Wahnsee Conference, and I doubt many folks other than Germans ever would do that. Though its worth noting only a couple of copies of the notes of that conf survived, largely by chance. Plenty of turkish documents were destroyed, and we will never know for sure. There seems to be sufficient evidence of at least central knowledge to call it a genocide.
In any case the earlier comments didnt seem to hinge on the distinction."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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arrian
Im glad you make the distinction to Darfur. I guess i was reacting a bit emotionally, seeing in this a "post"-Iraq realism that also isnt interested in Darfur, as well.
I agree that first and foremost we need to prevent contemporary genocides. I note Bob Dole has been at the forefront on that as well. Armenians too have been involved in the Save Darfur campaign.
But truthtelling, memory, still matters. Ive heard that enough from survivors of the Shoah. The perpetrators wanted their crimes hidden, and the victims are doubly victimized when the crimes are whitewashed."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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Originally posted by Ramo
I'm curious that you're troubled. I thought you didn't like calling every ethnic cleansing that comes along a genocide. I'd be a lot more comfortable with the resolution denouncing the ethnic cleansing or some similar terminology. Considering that we want to do everything we possibly can to stop them from intervening in Kurdistan. As I was saying, pretty pointless, but not that big a deal...
If we restrain the PKK, and get an equitable solution in Kirkuk, I cant see Turkey intervening over the Armenian res. If we DONT restrain the PKK, I dont think NOT passing the res is going to matter much."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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