Canadians to get Leopard 2s?

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Tingkai


Yes, he'll probably buy the equipment that will get him the most votes, rather than what is good for the Forces.

But why not the Challenger? Again, another tank that has proven itself in the region.

(1) Not in production(unless you want Harper to pay for the line to be restarted) and (2) there are not a whole Helluva lot of Challengers sitting around unused. So it isn't like you all could get them used.

I agree completely. My concern is just as problems were created by the Liberals being way too slow, problems are being created by the Conservatives making snap decisions.

I highly doubt there is snap decisions with any of this, unless you don't think the CF had a "wish-list" hidden away for years and years.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Lonestar




I find it amazing you are calling trading in 30 yr + tanks for mere 15 yr + tanks "new toys "

It is a little funny but if an older tank can do everything we need to get done, why not take an available bargain?

[Lonestar]

The point is they did opt for an older tank (it's about two versions short of the 2A6, for those of us who read the article)

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Lonestar
Abrams are (1) Gass-guzzlers, (2) more expensive and (3) in any event, the CF is getting the Leo's used from Germany, which is cheaper.

All tanks are gas guzzlers.

As for price, there are a lot of used tanks on the market. Sounds like Harper and the boys are buying the first one they see.

I suspect the Americans would give us a good deal to help us fight beside them in Afghanistan. The question is have we asked?

Originally posted by Lonestar
More likely the decision was made "we need a new MBT STAT and CHEEP.

Yes, they want them cheap and quick, but for political reasons. Harper wants to call an election and he'll use a tank deal to make his Pilsbury doughboy image look macho.

But I doubt the Forces need the tanks. We have 15 in Afghanistan, all of them working at last count. We have another 50 in reserve in Canada. So where's the urgency?

Originally posted by Lonestar
Also, we want there to maintenance/parts provided in the contract" hence leasing from Germany.

Who do you think is going to be fixing the tanks in Afghanistan? It won't be the Germans.

So not only do the Germans avoid sending troops to Afghanistan, they make some money by selling their surplus equipment to us.

Smart move by the Germans. Another dumb move by Harper.

Originally posted by Lonestar
(It's why the CF is buying 4
C-17s at $4 Billion without an open bid

Don't get me started on the stupidity of that move.

[Asher]

Tingkai, I think it's pretty clear you've no objective bone in your body regarding this.

[Tingkai]

You're right. I want what's best for the Forces, not the politicians.

[Asher]

What's best for the Forces would be to disband them and let them spend time with their wives and kids, no?

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Tingkai

All tanks are empty.

As for price, there are a lot of used tanks on the market. Sounds like Harper and the boys are buying the first one they see.

Probably the only ones out there. We(the USA) just depleted our stocks selling a hundred or so Abrams to Australia.

I

suspect the Americans would give us a good deal to help us fight beside them in Afghanistan. The question is have we asked?

See above.

Yes, they want them cheap and quick, but for political reasons. Harper wants to call an election and he'll use a tank deal to make his Pilsbury doughboy image look macho.

Or maybe because the CF has been screaming for them behind the scenes for years. Remember, the CF was talking about an "all-wheeled" force when Labor was in power and it was obvious they wouldn't get any money. Lo-and-behold wishlist comes out, and the CF is getting new tanks, more personnel, more helos, underway replenishment ships...those damn conservatives!

But I doubt the Forces need the tanks.

Privy to the innermost conversations of the CF General Staff, are we? Tell me more.

We have 15 in Afghanistan, all of them working at last count. We have another 50 in reserve in Canada. So where's the urgency?

Because they are old and old **** breaks down easily. Also, there is only so much modern gear you can carm into a tank not designed for it. The Leo 2 has a bigger gun, better FC, better armor, etc.

Who do you think is going to be fixing the tanks in Afghanistan? It won't be the Germans.

Parts will come from them. And they company that makes the tanks may have people flying out as part of the deal.

So not only do the Germans avoid sending troops to Afghanistan, they make some money by selling their surplus equipment to us.

Sending troops has never been a problem. It's "Having 3500 soldiers sit on their ass in Kabul while Canadians, British, Americans, Dutch, and Afghans fight and die against the Talican in the South and East."

Smart move by the Germans. Another dumb move by Harper.

Please. Just to clarify, you're *****ing and moaning that Harper has the audacity to upgrade the CF during a time of increased OP-Tempo? Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds?

Don't get me started on the stupidity of that move.

CF has decided they need 'em, because of the difficulty in getting free space on American airlift.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
What's best for the Forces would be to disband them and let them spend time with their wives and kids, no?

Ah, no.

What's best for the forces is to give them the equipment they need to do the job. And to make sure they're not overloaded with jobs and stretched too thin.

The Forces members want to serve.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Ah, no.

What's best for the forces is to give them the equipment they need to do the job. And to make sure they're not overloaded with jobs and stretched too thin.

So why do you support the Liberals and NDP, who are more than happy to send Forces members around in flying deathtraps and scrapped any plans to upgrade them?

If you were honest, about wanting the best for the forces, you'd be praising Harper for finally committing some money to upgrading the military and Canadian Forces members the Liberals left to wither and die.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Ah, no.

What's best for the forces is to give them the equipment they need to do the job.

Somehting Harper is doing, check.

And to make sure they're not overloaded with jobs and stretched too thin.

Expanding the CF, check

The Forces members want to serve.

Check...

So, what, exactly, is Harper doing wrong here in the context of keeping the CF well-equipped?

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Asher

So why do you support the Liberals and NDP, who are more than happy to send Forces members around in flying deathtraps and scrapped any plans to upgrade them?

If you were honest, about wanting the best for the forces, you'd be praising Harper for finally committing some money to upgrading the military and Canadian Forces members the Liberals left to wither and die.

If someone voted on any time of "Forces" agenda, I cannot see them supporting the Liberals for a long, long time.

I think many people support the idea of re-equipping the Forces-- But they can still question the choice of the particular equipment

[Asher]

Originally posted by Flubber
If someone voted on any time of "Forces" agenda, I cannot see them supporting the Liberals for a long, long time.

I think many people support the idea of re-equipping the Forces-- But they can still question the choice of the particular equipment

The problem is, as has been displayed, Tingkai doesn't know anything about the specifics of the equipment.

His arguments are purely political and anti-Harper rather than based on anything factual. It's painfully funny because he's blasting the only chance the Forces have for getting upgrades, all in the name of "supporting the Forces". Tingkai is using the Forces as an expendable political tool, which I think is shameful.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Lonestar

:LOL All I can say is it's late, I'm tired after playing hockey, and have had a few beers. Hell, I can't even figure out the Freudian slip if there was one.

Originally posted by Lonestar
Probably the only ones out there. We(the USA) just depleted our stocks selling a hundred or so Abrams to Australia.

The U.S. has a lot more where those came from. I'm sure they can spare another 100.

And if you can't help an ally who is helping you...

Originally posted by Lonestar
Or maybe because the CF has been screaming for them behind the scenes for years. Remember, the CF was talking about an "all-wheeled" force when Labor was in power

You mean the Liberals. We don't have a Labor Party and if we did we would spell it Labour

The Army was being organized on an all-wheel force. So the wish-list would be for things needed to support that approach. And the top of that wish list was basic things like communications equipment.

Now there would have been lots of talk over beers about wouldn't it be great to have some new tanks and which tank tank would be best.

But heavy duty studies into which tank we should get if the forces had unlimited funding? Not likely, the Forces are too busy for these pipe dreams.

Besides, any decision would require serious proposals from the sellers. That's why we need an open bid to find the best deal.

Originally posted by Lonestar
Because they are old and old **** breaks down easily. Also, there is only so much modern gear you can carm into a tank not designed for it. The Leo 2 has a bigger gun, better FC, better armor, etc.

And yet, there have been no reports about the tanks breaking down. There have been no reports about tanks not being up to the job. There have been no reports about replacement tanks being sent from Canada.

Just out of the blue, we're suddenly told that we need new tanks stat.

Just in time for the election.

Originally posted by Lonestar
And they company that makes the tanks may have people flying out as part of the deal.

You know the details of the contract, eh.

Originally posted by Lonestar
Please. Just to clarify, you're *****ing and moaning that Harper has the audacity to upgrade the CF during a time of increased OP-Tempo?

Just because you need a new car, doesn't mean you should buy the first one you see. Panic-buying is never a good idea.

[notyoueither]

How do you know it's panic buying and that the forces didn't tell Harper that if they got anything they wanted Leos?