more evidence against the liberal arts

[Kuciwalker]

I would like to also take this as an opportunity to point out that I think you fancy yourself a superior to someone solely based on intellect.

You'd be wrong. In fact it's pretty obvious that judging people based solely on intellect is a bad policy.

[Elok]

The thing is, it's pretty damned expensive to be a plain test of your ability to work. You could get the same results by going through two years at a community college. I was a lazy little bum my first year of college, got booted out, and learned to work at the local community college for maybe $5K total. Then I got a BA at Washington College, and it taught me a lot more than just how to work.

You don't even need to think of it as a matter of intelligence. My brother is about as smart as I am, which is what makes him an excellent mechanic. It's just a different kind of intelligence. He lives without a care for what Kant or Newton or Euclid might have thought, but he's great at knowing when "the damn alternator's shot," because fixing a car takes a certain kind of problem-solving ability. Luckily, we're not dumb enough to make mechanics go through college, AFAIK (though he did waste a couple of years at Lincoln Tech learning nothing before getting on-the-job training). But there are certainly plenty of programming jobs, for example, that could be done sans education by geeks who grew up playing with their PCs, and I bet they want BS's for those. That's how you get people like Asher who come on 'poly bugging the rest of us about this "cogito ergo sum" bull**** they had to memorize for a distribution requirement...

What I mean is that an education should not be mandatory for jobs except those which, y'know, require it. Secondary education is too valuable to be used as a mere filter for punks like I was. The biggest tragedy is when the system accomodates itself to the hordes of people who really aren't big-picture types but got shoved in anyway. Some invariably get lured into writing gibberish like I've been complaining about--which gives the illusion of profundity but is just an exercise in persistent bias, or of stating the obvious in convoluted language. You wind up with a gaggle of people working on a manufactured need when they could have been quite happy doing actual work that benefits society.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Re: more evidence against the liberal arts

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
"Liberal communitarian and post-structural social theories which emphasize the social construction of the self-help explain why expression which distorts or undermines one’s self-conception can be a serious social problem."

I submit this as evidence that liberal arts majors cannot write.

Apart from the unforgiveable use of "self-help" as a noun, it's not too bad.

[Last Conformist]

What percentage of Americans got college anyway?

(In Sweden, about 50% pursue tertiary education.)

[GePap]

I certainly think that in the US too many people are pushed into college when other avenues would be better. I think for example that there are too few vocational schools in this country.

Certainly a lot of jobs look at college education as giving them some idea of the ability of people to work, but perhaps this is the conceit of HR people who themselves went to college. I think for a lot of jobs it would be better for everyone of people got an associate degree at a two year school and then started the job.

Not everyone is cut out for college, and that is OK, because most jobs don't really need a lot of the "skills" you get in college. I would agree with you that a lot of college educated people think themselves superior than others of "lesser" intelligengence, but that hubris on the part of some does not somehow justify a response that everyone should go to college when a lot of people would probably not benefit.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
What percentage of Americans got college anyway?

(In Sweden, about 50% pursue tertiary education.)

Last figures I have seen, about 37% of the population get some education beyond high school (secondary).

This is from the US census:

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/STTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=01000US&-qr_name=ACS_2005_EST_G00_S1501&-ds_name=ACS_2005_EST_G00_

[Asher]

GePap

Your hard work to discredit the arts is duly noted.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Elok
But there are certainly plenty of programming jobs, for example, that could be done sans education by geeks who grew up playing with their PCs, and I bet they want BS's for those. That's how you get people like Asher who come on 'poly bugging the rest of us about this "cogito ergo sum" bull**** they had to memorize for a distribution requirement...

What?

There's a huge salary differential between people with university degrees in computer science, people with community college diplomas in computer programming, and self-taught computer programmers.

There's also huge differences in what you learn, and subsequently what you do.

In real terms a simpleton arts student may understand, computer programming is a trade skill like being a mechanic. Computer scientists and software engineers are more akin to mechanical engineers than mechanics.

The only courses about computer programming in a computer science degree usually come in the first year of the degree.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Elok
What I mean is that an education should not be mandatory for jobs except those which, y'know, require it.

I strongly disagree with this.

IMO, it's good to a have a mandatory education in the arts, just like sports is mandatory in the curriculum.

Among other things, the school must give their students the path to a "mens sana in corpore sano". It helps becoming a fulfilled human being. This path isn't taught by professional skills.


Now, don't get me wrong. The way arts are taught (at least in France) sucks utterly. It's taught in a way that favors learning by heart, at the expense(sp?) of creativity, curiosity and understanding.

[Asher]

The reason sports is mandatory isn't for being a "fulfilled human being", it's for being physically healthy.

Arts, on the other hand, drives people insane.

[Spiffor]

Unhealthiness

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Asher
Arts, on the other hand, drives people insane.

I should note that this statement is true.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I strongly disagree with this.

IMO, it's good to a have a mandatory education in the arts, just like sports is mandatory in the curriculum.

Among other things, the school must give their students the path to a "mens sana in corpore sano". It helps becoming a fulfilled human being. This path isn't taught by professional skills.

I don't know about France, but in the sane world we don't have mandatory physical education at tertiary level.

Furthermore, getting a masters in a technical field already takes five years or so. Padding this with a couple years of liberal arts will just make more people content themselves with a vocational secondary education and start earning money at 20. Not necessarily a bad thing for them, but society at large could do without the resultant shortage of engineers.

[Elok]

I would say rather the inverse (converse? I forget the precise Aristotelian terms): insanity attracts the artistic, or insanity drives its sufferers to art.

Spiffor: I agree that everyone should have an appreciation of the arts. I also feel that everyone should give to charity. But I still don't think we should make proof of a donation to the Salvation Army/Red Cross/Toys for Tots/whatever a prerequisite for the majority of jobs, for two reasons: first, it's completely irrelevant to the ability to do the job, and second, it's a lot less meaningful when people only do it as a means to getting employment.

Asher: I don't know Comp Sci; fair enough. But seeing as you hate and have no appreciation for, well, everything other than Comp Sci (at least, that's the impression you give), wouldn't it be better if you'd gone to the equivalent of a vocational school?

[Last Conformist]

The equivalent of a vocational school for compsci would be a MSc in computer science, I'm afraid.