Czech president: Gore is insane.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by GePap


Sorry, but a cingular period 300,000,000 million years ago is pretty irrelevant to the discussion today.

Yeah. I guess it's safe to say we only have to look at what happened after Big Bang.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by GePap


Sorry, but a cingular period 300,000,000 million years ago is pretty irrelevant to the discussion today.

Definitive proof that cell phones cause global warming.

[Berzerker]

Sorry, but a cingular period 300,000,000 million years ago is pretty irrelevant to the discussion today.

it wasn't a single episode, CO2 levels have been higher for much of Earth's (life) history. And if its true that temps were comparable with such elevated CO2 levels, then it obviously shows CO2 is not the factor some think it is.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Berzerker


it wasn't a single episode, CO2 levels have been higher for much of Earth's (life) history. And if its true that temps were comparable with such elevated CO2 levels, then it obviously shows CO2 is not the factor some think it is.

Yes, CO2 levels have been higher, and SO HAVE TEMPERATURES. Jesus....

300,000,000 years ago a lot of things were very different from today...the position of the continents being a simple example of a vast difference. That is why the climate before mammals came into existance is not a particularly relevant topic to discuss when talking about GW today.

It does not matter that the weather has been significantly different in the past - that is not what this "debate" is really about, or at least not what is should be about. Global Warming is an important issue because the question is, simply stated, just how quick a change can civilization handle. The entire human civilization we have built has been built in only 10,000 years. One of the basic assumptions all human societies make is that the physical space they inhabit is pretty much static. Over the course of most human lifetimes that is a workable assumption. Various societies have found out though that the land around the can change, and usually that change is drastic and damaging, because the society can't handle it.

Global Warming is an issue simply because of the possibility that we human beings through our own actions might change climate enough to imbalance what we have built today, causing great upheavals as people are forced to move, and economies are forced to shift. IN such a discussion, that it was once hotter when Dinosaus rules the earth is about as relevant as pointing out that once there was no Oxygen in the atmosphere.

Which is why Ned's graph is a great proof AGAINST his argument, because the levels of CO2 today are out of the norm for the last 400,000 years, leaving open the question of what other things not seen in the last 400,000 years (or the full time our species has existed on this planet) are coming up.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

someone should run a regression analysis with CO2 as the independent variable and temperature as the dependant and see what sort of relationship we have.

[Ned]

Lawrence, would such an analysis demonstrate whether temperature variations cause CO2 variations, the converse or what?

For example, if 100% of the time there is both lightening and thunder, would a regression analysis tell us which one is causing the other?

[Ned]

Originally posted by GePap


Yes, CO2 levels have been higher, and SO HAVE TEMPERATURES. Jesus....

300,000,000 years ago a lot of things were very different from today...the position of the continents being a simple example of a vast difference. That is why the climate before mammals came into existance is not a particularly relevant topic to discuss when talking about GW today.

It does not matter that the weather has been significantly different in the past - that is not what this "debate" is really about, or at least not what is should be about. Global Warming is an important issue because the question is, simply stated, just how quick a change can civilization handle. The entire human civilization we have built has been built in only 10,000 years. One of the basic assumptions all human societies make is that the physical space they inhabit is pretty much static. Over the course of most human lifetimes that is a workable assumption. Various societies have found out though that the land around the can change, and usually that change is drastic and damaging, because the society can't handle it.

Global Warming is an issue simply because of the possibility that we human beings through our own actions might change climate enough to imbalance what we have built today, causing great upheavals as people are forced to move, and economies are forced to shift. IN such a discussion, that it was once hotter when Dinosaus rules the earth is about as relevant as pointing out that once there was no Oxygen in the atmosphere.

Which is why Ned's graph is a great proof AGAINST his argument, because the levels of CO2 today are out of the norm for the last 400,000 years, leaving open the question of what other things not seen in the last 400,000 years (or the full time our species has existed on this planet) are coming up.

Good point here.

The question is degree, of course.

But the major point I was trying to make is that CO2 generally tracks temperature and that increases in temperature cause increases in CO2, and the converse. This is particularly important in understanding the recent mini-ice age and it warming that took place between 1850 and 1940. The warming took place at a time when CO2 levels were low, so the warming had to have been caused by the observed increase in solar activity. CO2 has be tracking upward since, but this is NORMAL. It isn't until recent history, the past 30-40 years, that CO2 has risen way above historical norms.

But alarmists would tell you that industry CO2 caused all the warming since the mini-ice age. We know this is BS. I have also seen statements that the whole of CO2 forcing, the whole of the 383ppm and not that above 280-300ppm, is man made. You should now know this is BS.

Based on the Wiki article and just comparing man made CO2 to the power of the sun, we see that man made CO2 forcing is a small fraction of 1% of the sun's power and that even with their own calculations, it can only be expected to affect temperatures by a small fraction of a degree. So, it is very hard to understand just how one can leap from these simple calculations, using the alarmists own numbers, to assume a very quick rise in termperates of several degrees celsius.

But there are other things going on in the world that affect temperatures in a negative way. Aerosol polution for one. Ozone depleting chemicals for another. The first blocks sunlight and is much more powerful than GHGs in terms of affect on temperature. The second, Ozone depletion, is the reason temperatures may be falling at the poles, where Ozone depletion is most severe. Ozone, it seems, absorbs ultraviolet radiation which helps warm the Earth. Its depletion cools temperature.

Finally, the temperature data that the IPCC and others rely on to prove rising global temperatures is more than obviously affected by the heat island effect as demostrated above. West Point temperatures are flat. NYC temperature are rising. But they are only a few miles apart.

Alarmist have been predicting major rises in temperature for decades now. Nothing of the sort has actually been observed. So, don't you think it is time stop and study rather than to act in a manner that actually may harm us more than help us?

[Solly]

Three major repositories of climate facts and figures are the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) in England, The United States Historical Climatology Network (USHCN) and the National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) in the USA. The remarkably restrained Steve McIntyre has been looking at some of the data they put out. And guess what? It has changed recently! They have revised the past. The figures they now give for temperatures during the 20th century have been changed! And you don’t need to guess the direction of the change. They are now representing the late 20th century as being warmer than what they once said it was and the early 20th century as being cooler than what they once said it was.

http://www.bloggernews.net/14789

Hello 1984.

[Berzerker]

Yes, CO2 levels have been higher, and SO HAVE TEMPERATURES. Jesus....

I said

And if its true that temps were comparable with such elevated CO2 levels, then it obviously shows CO2 is not the factor some think it is.

Jesus... So how much? What was CO2 when temps were comparable?

300,000,000 years ago a lot of things were very different from today...the position of the continents being a simple example of a vast difference. That is why the climate before mammals came into existance is not a particularly relevant topic to discuss when talking about GW today.

Yes, we've mentioned the continents already but what you're saying is there are other factors. We know, so why ignore other factors now? If we find comparable temps in the past with higher CO2 levels then y'all got to explain it.

It does not matter that the weather has been significantly different in the past - that is not what this "debate" is really about, or at least not what is should be about.

You're wrong, the past tells us the climate changes radically and can do so quickly. It also tells us what is coming our way when orbital forcing results in ice sheets growing across much of the northern hemisphere.

Global Warming is an important issue because the question is, simply stated, just how quick a change can civilization handle. The entire human civilization we have built has been built in only 10,000 years. One of the basic assumptions all human societies make is that the physical space they inhabit is pretty much static. Over the course of most human lifetimes that is a workable assumption. Various societies have found out though that the land around the can change, and usually that change is drastic and damaging, because the society can't handle it.

And just a couple hundred years ago alot of people were freezing their butts off. So we've come out of that freezing period and now we're told we should fear this warming period. Wtf? Am I supposed to get worried because its warmer on May 1st than February 1st? The adjustments we have to make to accomodate a warmer world are fewer and less difficult than trying to live in an ice world.

Global Warming is an issue simply because of the possibility that we human beings through our own actions might change climate enough to imbalance what we have built today, causing great upheavals as people are forced to move, and economies are forced to shift.

"Imbalance"? Now the GW crowd knows this balance? Was the climate in "balance" 200 years ago? We're told about "greenhouse gases" and ignore the implications - greenhouses create stable, warm climates. But all you've described occurs regardless of what we're doing to the atmosphere, true?

IN such a discussion, that it was once hotter when Dinosaus rules the earth is about as relevant as pointing out that once there was no Oxygen in the atmosphere.

What did they breathe? Does it matter what gases made up the atmosphere when it was warmer?

[Solly]

The earth is never in a stable balance. It lurches from one unstable equilibrium to the next. There is no delicate balance to protect. The sooner envirofascists get this into their thick skulls the better.

[Solly]

Looks like they have.

[Solly]

It appears the next place to expose the great Global Warming Swindle will be the temperature record, kept under wraps by Phil Jones of the University of East Anglia, and certainly not peer reviewed. He won't release it, not say what he has done to the data. Yet more suspicious activity from the climate field.