Czech president: Gore is insane.

[Arrian]

A Cardinal? WTF? I mean, hey, I generally agree with the guy, but does he bring any expertise to the table?

I loved the line about how Christians don't go against reason, but sometimes go beyond it.

-Arrian

[BlackCat]

Well, he do actuall reference one of the common known natural disasters that he is supposed to be an expert on

We know that enormous climate changes have occurred in world history -- for example, the ice ages and Noah's flood, when human causation could only have been negligible.

[Ramo]

By CARDINAL GEORGE PELL

[...]

What we were seeing from the doomsayers was an induced dose of mild hysteria -- semi-religious if you like, but dangerously close to superstition.

[...]

We know that enormous climate changes have occurred in world history -- for example, the ice ages and Noah's flood, when human causation could only have been negligible.

Beautiful

[Ramo]

Yeah, Ramo, I did say the position of the continents probably caused the higher temperatures in the past and not higher CO2 content. This is consistent with the Earth's tilt and orbit being significant today as the relative amount of sunlight reaching the Northern Hemishpere is what is driving the ice age cycles.

And you believe this for the same reason that you believed that aerosol dims solar radiation by 18 W/m^2?

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Ramo

Beautiful

Isn't it, though?

Incidently, if one believes in the biblical flood, isn't it fair to say that human impact was indeed the (proximate) cause? Human immorality -> God's wrath = flood.

-Arrian

[Ned]

Originally posted by Ramo


And you believe this for the same reason that you believed that aerosol dims solar radiation by 18 W/m^2?

I saw that figure in a paper I linked. There are all sorts of numbers out there, so it appears that different areas may get more dimming than others. I actually have no idea what the global average is.

As for CO2 and temperature, naturally it traps heat and is part of the process of keeping the Earth warm. But CO2 levels seem to follow temperature and reinforce trends, not force them -- at least historically. So if there are high CO2 levels and high temperatures, the source of the high temperatures is probably the sun, with high CO2 being a by-product of temperature. (Where all the CO2 comes from and goes to is a different topic, but one possibility are the oceans.)

We know the most important factor in solar radiation is the amount of sunlight that is absorbed and not re-radiated. It appears that this is highly related to the amount of vegetated land that is exposed to sunlight. The more land that is covered by snow, the less absorption and higher reflection.

So when you see that 60-100 million years ago temperatures were much higher, I suggest the main reason for this is that the continents were all receiving sunlight and none were covered in ice and snow. And when we see the ice ages come to Earth, it is because Anarctica, Greenland and much of the Northern Hemishpere is covered in snow, at least during the winter.

Today, we are in a delicate balance between ice ages and temperate climates. The balance is controlled by our orbit and our tilt. When the Northern Hemisphere receives enough sunlight, we emerge from an ice age for a brief period of time, on the order of 12-20k years. Then we slip back into another ice age. The larger cycle appears to be 100k years.

Now I do not contend that manmade GHG have no effect on temperature. I contend that the effect is not as great as contended by the advocates. But I also point out that there are other polutions that can have a large cooling effect that we should also be worried about.

I also contend that it is unlikely that manmade GHG can stop or undo the ice age cycle because high CO2 levels in the past did not. Conversely, low CO2 levels did not prevent us from coming out of an ice age.

[Ned]

CO2 nd temperature, 400k years

Here are some charts of the last 400k years comparing CO2 and temperature. Note the correlation. Note also that CO2 has been steadily increasing for 18000 years.

[Ned]

The temps

[Solly]

Originally posted by Ned



We know the most important factor in solar radiation is the amount of sunlight that is absorbed and not re-radiated.

How does this tie in with the fact that it is the developed, northern hemisphere areas that are warming, and that vegetation has been cleared most excessively here?

I also have doubts about the integrity of the thermometer temperature record - the compiler of the main temperature series, phil Jones, refuses to release his data and methods as "you just want to try to find something wrong with it". That's really scientific and breeds trust. Not.

[Solly]

Interesting...

[BlackCat]

Ned & Doddler, out of wich hats have you drawn those charts ?

Refs, please.

[Solly]

Blackcut - look at the image urls. Here's another

I'm sure the AGW crowd will be putting their heads in the sand and fingers in ears right now..?

[RGBVideo]

Pekka

Originally posted by Pekka
I don't have to have any ammo, it's not like I'd waste time to debate these idiots.

You neither? Check your PM's.

[Solly]

Re: Pekka

Originally posted by VJ

You neither? Check your PM's.

Like I said, head in sand

[RGBVideo]

Re: Re: Pekka

Originally posted by Doddler
I'm an idiot

If you weren't you might be able to read that according to your own (badly obsolete) data, temperature has gone up since 1990.