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  • #16
    Originally posted by Kidicious
    If they are stupid they would probably anoy me too. There was this one chick who was trying to tell me that economics was just a bunch of BS because all they have to do is print more money and give it to the poor. Sure thought that inflation was just a lie and a conspiracy.

    Well, economics is just a big game of make believe.
    Rethink Refuse Reduce Reuse

    Do It Ourselves

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    • #17
      After all whyt I saw at university,
      most of the students in Ruhr Valley are left,
      but only a really small percentage might be considered radical leftist
      (i.e. with throwing stones at policemen and the like).

      At least till today I haven´t encountered anyone of the radical left spectrum among the students I know.
      Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
      Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

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      • #18
        Originally posted by General Ludd



        Well, economics is just a big game of make believe.
        Yeah, my History of Econ Thought prof is telling me that. It's a bit unfortunate because I still have to pass my other econ classes

        ---

        At Georgia Tech there weren't many left-wing people, even by American standards (and that's saying something). Here at McGill, I feel like some reactionary rightist. On Wednesday, we had a mass protest against tuition where some of the signs even said: lower tuition. Yeah, because it's horrible that us poor, poor students should pay $1300/semester

        When I was looking for a political party to join, I considered the Greens, but decided not to bother after I saw them spend the whole meeting talking about tuition and how it's evil. You know, I was kinda hoping to get involved with some political group that cared about something other than engaging in rent-seeking behaviour.
        "The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists."
        -Joan Robinson

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        • #19
          True, it's part make belief but it has very real consequences, should we just print money .

          THis is something the communists in here do not understand, I mean REAL communists. They want us to get out of the EU, effectively isolating ourselves from the world, so we can do this thing. Somehow they gather, that our economy would still run. Yes, it's a make belief thing partly, but it's not like we have lots of natural resources, we can't make it on our own. We would sink so fast and so deep that it wouldn't even be funny.

          They like to talk about the rich elite... hey, we have like the top ten rich people, where you can be if you earn more than 2 million euros in one year. We don't have 'rich elite', simply because we don't have a lot of rich people. What they consider rich is someone a bit above the middle class, adn the middle class is sometimes considered here what is barely over the poverty limit. So... no.

          Many of these people consider it to be wrong, that there are people who make more money simply because they have a good job. It's wrong. It's WROOOOOOONG. Why should they make more money, even though I have no job. Or I have a job that pays too little.

          The problem isn't that someone else is making more money, the problem is you're getting paid too little. They should concentrate on that, not what other people make. So, they are, deep down, jealous, they are definitely anti-business, and for distributing everything 50/50/50, no matter what you do. I mean, it isn't even communism some of them promote, it's just stupidity. But of course it appeals to a lot of people, because a lot of people are unemployed, make small wages, you know.. but the question is, what are they doing to themselves? Just pointing fingers, people who ARE doing something to make their situation better, well, somehow they are to blame. So that's why it's jealousy most of hte time and nothing else.
          In da butt.
          "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
          THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
          "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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          • #20
            It's the ultimate dilemma of communism really Pekka, the approach should never be isolationist, it is supposed to be revolution on a global scale. It's especially why the 'communism in one country' is a load of rubbish, but to achieve it on a global scale is probably nigh on impossible.

            The super rich...a good question. The problem is that these are the people who horde the majority of the world's wealth but are the most capable of escaping taxation because they can be, effectively, 'international' and run to the most convenient tax haven. The problem is that these people have such vast amounts of power and wealth and opulence, whereas there are those who are starving.

            You see you're being very idealistic Pekka, true social mobility just doesn't exist as I mentioned in an earlier post.
            Speaking of Erith:

            "It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith

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            • #21
              The criticism was directed at local communists, who are preaching isolation AND communism at the same time. I mean it won't work, it's a sure way to bring the economy down for us. That is all.

              About the super rich, well, since we don't have the super rich, I find it weird that these people still share the same rhetorics than in places where there are super rich and vast differencies in income, where the poor are very poor and rich are very rich. We don't have the same setting in here, yet they seem to use the same rhetorics with passion. It's like they went to see a movie and wanted to be like the main character and now they quote them all over the place.

              And the criticism was directed at the people who do these things and use this as a way to move around, as in, we are so progressive and enlightened now, that if you are against me, you must be against all my values, such as equality. You see how the discourse is created here? It's typical in many other situations as well, this is a very common thing.

              So, I hate that. TO me this means, you want to talk about equality? Let's talk about equality. What it means, what is the current state of it, how we can have more of it. You see, to some people it means that we are equally poor. Well, that's a provoking thing to say, but my point is, to me equality is about the way everyone is handled. That is, if you are a woman, a foreigner, old person, what ever, you should have hte same basic opportunities and treated no worse because of it.

              Equality has lots to do with economic situation for sure, if you're poor, well you won't get the same privilidges as a rich person would. So there's a fundamental difference between hating the rich now, as if they are stealing from the poor, and some kind of evil people, to how can we make sure, that justice happens in this equality thing? To me, justice is, that you get what you deserve. So, if you have no chances of getting out of the poverty, it is not justice, because you never had the chance to show what you deserve.

              So for example, I think equality is pretty good in here, because EVERYONE can go to school for free (well nothing is free but anyway..), all the way to their PhD. Free. So... it's all about what you choose to do. it doesn't matter how much money you make or don't make, you can get your PhD. You know? I think that's a great thing when it comes to equality, you can do that, it's not just talk.

              But very few CHOOSE to do it. Why? They choose something else. A great many choose to go the easy route. I'm not saying they aren't hard workers, I'm saying they don't bother with the education. Then later on they turn and say, well, you're making all this money mr. big shot with your PhD, and it's wrong. Excuse me, how is this wrong? This is they way it goes, and it was all about what you chose and I chose, so this difference we are makign is justified (in most cases).

              So, we handle the issue of equality very differently. I'm all for equality, but I'm also for responsibility of the self. I think it is enough, if we as the society make sure, that everyone has an equal opportunity from the beginning, what happens after that, well, then the responsiblity part kicks in.
              In da butt.
              "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
              THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
              "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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              • #22
                Yeah, my issue is certainly not with those who are earning a decent wage through doing well and getting an education and being intelligent - they comprise what would be referred to as the 'middle class', but they really don't own the power and the wealth of this country. Hell, I fall into that category and seem to be heading further and further into it - like my destiny in life (I am from a working class background but you would be hard pushed to call me working class nowadays, although I would rather be seen as transcending those boundaries anyway ).
                Speaking of Erith:

                "It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith

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                • #23
                  Right, but it's all depending what place we're talking about. There are lots of places where the power is in the hands of the very few, and that's bedause they have money, and that money stays there and very few have the opportunity to go for the same things.

                  And this is the same argument you'd face in here... the, "what about people in Africa?". Yeah, what about it? I thought we were debating local politics here. What does that have to do with anything? What does that have to do with equality in here, education system and economy? You know, it just makes no sense, the rules of debate fly right out of the window, and it has to end up with you being evil and hating the poor. There's just no other way around it.
                  In da butt.
                  "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                  THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                  "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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                  • #24
                    The problem, simply, is that the Smugs assume that they have a monopoly over the concept of equality, claim ownership of it, and denounce everyone else as vermin.

                    They have a deeply authoritarian nature, and will, ironically, eventually grow up to despise the working class.

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                    • #25
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                      • #26
                        Cort Haus, right, very well put. It's frustrating. You ask for a simple thing, which is to debate the issue at hand, and not go for system of values, where you can't have any of the values they already claimed. So.. that's that. Is that reasonable? I often ask in situation like these, it's a trick question just to make them go insane, "do you REALLY think that, or do you just feel that?". There's never an answer right away, so I continue to mess it up, "I mean, how can you tell the difference? If you THINK like that, it can just come from what you feel, right? Or, if you feel like that, it can come from what you think. So how can you tell the difference? You must know, since your position is pretty strogn on this one. I also want that we go by what we think, not what we feel, because this is an issue, so we debate it, so we must be rational, and you agree there's no room for too much emotions. So.. do you REALLY think that, or do you just have that strong feeling? If you really think that, then explain to me why you think that and how you came to that conclusion."... debate over. Jump to kids in Africa or something.

                        And yeah, I mean, if we want to go with the world where working class exists, well, let's hear what the working class has to say. It's like they think they can speak for the working class, never having worked. I just speak for myself. I wouldn't dare to speak for a big group of people just like that. Yeah my family has the same background but so what, what do I know about it?

                        So, don't claim any domains you aren't part of, or if you do, make a clear remark that now you are talking on behalf of a group you don't belong to.

                        To me, it would be enough if every party just agreed to follow the rules of a proper debate. This is too much to ask. It really boggles me that supposedly Uni students, supposedly mostly smart, do not know the rules of debating. It boggles me, that they would go and run into the traps of being narrow minded. You see, if I don't agree with the view presented, I'm supposedly narrow minded. Why is that? I usually throw in few mind fudgers to the wheels when those claims come with, "do you really think that? Or do you feel that way, because I'm disagreeing with you. How well do you know your domain? What have you read? Just give me one book. One single book? No? OK.. so you supposedly know your domain, but do you know my domain? Or other domains? If so, explain to me what is the difference between the left and the right, the correct description, objectively. OK, just give me the difference in economic terms, just very vaguely, very generally.'

                        It's usually so easy to expose the BS. But ti ends up you being evil nazi. Of course, when you have a smart leftie, they wouldn't go down the same road. But then again, they wouldn't start stupid debates like that, and if they did, it would be issue against an issue, as in real debate, not frustrating. These people exists, just not in our Unis.
                        In da butt.
                        "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                        THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                        "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cort Haus
                          The problem, simply, is that the Smugs assume that they have a monopoly over the concept of equality, claim ownership of it, and denounce everyone else as vermin.

                          They have a deeply authoritarian nature, and will, ironically, eventually grow up to despise the working class.
                          That is what happens. The fact is they are very condescending and patronising on the whole...I've met a few in my time. However I've found that the right-wingers here hate the working class from the outset. Daddy said they don't even use balsamic vinegar.
                          Speaking of Erith:

                          "It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith

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                          • #28
                            And usually these folks dont' realize that they are pretty oppressive.

                            I mean, if you go down the road where you think since you are this and this side, you are good, and others are the opposite of you.. how stupid is that? Do you REALLY think that, or do you feel that? Do you seriously make this claim? now that you're thinking about it, you're not making the claim, so why do you go back at it after this talk is done? Would it crumble your world, would it be like 'there is no God' moment, after 60 years of believing?

                            Of course there are right wingers, who have the same set of logics. Of course tehre are people, lots of them, who think the market economy is magical, and if you do this, then this would automatically happen every single time.

                            But my point usually is, I never said I was right wing. Depends how you look at it. Comparing to YOU I might be more to the right, however, that still doesn't mean anything.
                            In da butt.
                            "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                            THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                            "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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                            • #29
                              Although saying that, I am scared of what I am turning into...a complete betrayal to my roots...I was looking around Morrison's the other day trying to find proscuito...dammit man!
                              Speaking of Erith:

                              "It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith

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                              • #30
                                "Daddy said they don't even use balsamic vinegar."

                                In da butt.
                                "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
                                THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
                                "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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