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JS Mill, free speech, and creationism/global warming

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  • JS Mill, free speech, and creationism/global warming

    We read (in my case re-read) part of JS Mill's On Liberty (specifically "Of the Liberty of Thought and Discussion") in my writing seminar recently, and I've been thinking about it with respect to the creationism and global warming debates. Specifically, I've been thinking about his infallibility argument:

    First: the opinion which it is attempted to suppress by authority may possibly be true. Those who desire to suppress it, of course deny its truth; but they are not infallible. They have no authority to decide the question for all mankind, and exclude every other person from the means of judging. T refuse a hearing to an opinion, because they are sure that it is false, is to assume that their certainty is the same thing as absolute certainty.


    And

    There is the greatest difference between presuming an opinion to be true, because, with every opportunity for contesting it, it has not been refuted, and assuming its truth for the purpose of not permitting its refutation.


    There currently is no real repression of speech on either of these issues; in fact, by all appearances a lively debate is occuring on each. What concerns me is that each side seems to want to use what powers they can to actually prevent the other side from speaking, and that when one side feels threatened it resorts even more to using authority rather than reason to dismiss the other.

    Consider first the evolution debate. Evolution is in no question among real scientists. There is essentially universal consensus among biologists that in general the theory of evolution is true; almost all of the rest of biology depends on it. It would be absurd for "creation science" to be published in a reputable scientific journal. It's almost more absurd to teach it in schools.

    But. By denying this belief the traditional avenues of scientific discourse, and more so by opposing it in the general education of youth, we are using authority rather than reason to combat it. The response on the part of the creationists has been to try (unsuccessfully) to gain those same weapons. That's why we see them trying to force creationism (excuse me, intelligent design) into schools.

    The crux of this is that we rightfully believe that these ideas are absurd and have no future value. But (by Mill) that is an assumption of infallibility. I'm not sure he's wrong. Perhaps it would be best to give them greater leeway in the schools, because else we assume evolution's truth for the purpose of not permitting its refutation.

    The same process is visible in the global warming debate. From what I can tell, there are few/no publications against global warming*, and when there are they are immediately criticized as paid hacks of The Oil Conspiracy. I'm not qualified to make any judgement as to which side is right, but it seems there are significant elements of each side that make up their mind first, then look for evidence to justify it. And the global warming side in particular uses a lot of arguments to authority, when they say "this is the [overwhelming] consensus of scientists in the field, so shut up." We also hear complaints from each side that the government/scientific community is trying to muzzle them. Most of the time these are IMO absurd fearmongering, but I believe there are elements of each side that sincerely believe we would be better off if the other were silenced.

    And again, maybe they're not wrong, but it's another assumption of infallibility. In the case of global warming infallibility is a terrible assumption, given the state of the art.

    * either the fact or the cause - everyone here should understand what sides I'm referring to, even though my wording is imprecise

    edit: I'm not confident enough to say I agree with either option, but I find it distinctly uncomfortable for two of my stronger beliefs to confict like this.

  • #2
    What concerns me is that each side seems to want to use what powers they can to actually prevent the other side from speaking


    Not really...
    12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
    Stadtluft Macht Frei
    Killing it is the new killing it
    Ultima Ratio Regum

    Comment


    • #3
      Will you just shut up...
      What?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by KrazyHorse
        What concerns me is that each side seems to want to use what powers they can to actually prevent the other side from speaking


        Not really...
        By preventing Creationism from being taught it schools you are distinctly limiting its expression.

        Comment


        • #5
          By denying this belief the traditional avenues of scientific discourse


          How so? There is a certain level of ingrained belief in accepted theories, but if somebody has any actual evidence, and practices intellectual honesty (keeping his claims in relation to his evidence) then reputable journals would be happy to publish his stuff. If, however, you come out with "this fossil was in the wrong place therefore evolution is wrong and the Earth was created in 6 days", then why the hell should anybody publish it?
          12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
          Stadtluft Macht Frei
          Killing it is the new killing it
          Ultima Ratio Regum

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Kuciwalker


            By preventing Creationism from being taught it schools you are distinctly limiting its expression.
            By preventing human sacrifice from being practiced you are directly limiting the expression of Aztec religion.
            12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
            Stadtluft Macht Frei
            Killing it is the new killing it
            Ultima Ratio Regum

            Comment


            • #7
              Why shouldn't schools be teaching the consensus achieved in peer-reviewed scientific journals?
              "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
              -Bokonon

              Comment


              • #8
                Taught in schools... in what class, though?

                In a (comparative, preferably) religion class, fine. In Bio? Come on!

                -Arrian
                grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by KrazyHorse
                  By denying this belief the traditional avenues of scientific discourse


                  How so? There is a certain level of ingrained belief in accepted theories, but if somebody has any actual evidence, and practices intellectual honesty (keeping his claims in relation to his evidence) then reputable journals would be happy to publish his stuff. If, however, you come out with "this fossil was in the wrong place therefore evolution is wrong and the Earth was created in 6 days", then why the hell should anybody publish it?
                  I agree, and I don't think you really can scientifically justify creationism/intelligent design. But these people sincerely believe that they are doing proper science, and that they are being muzzled by authority. Their response is to try to use the same weapons against evolution.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Look, allowing people to speak is a good idea, but limits are required. If their speech violates some more important ideal then it must be limited. If your speech involves killing babies, or using a government soapbox to promulgate a crypto-religious viewpoint among a captive audience of children, then tough ****ing titties.
                    12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                    Stadtluft Macht Frei
                    Killing it is the new killing it
                    Ultima Ratio Regum

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Kuciwalker


                      I agree, and I don't think you really can scientifically justify creationism/intelligent design. But these people sincerely believe that they are doing proper science, and that they are being muzzled by authority. Their response is to try to use the same weapons against evolution.
                      And they are wrong and we are right.

                      You can't fix stupid.
                      12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                      Stadtluft Macht Frei
                      Killing it is the new killing it
                      Ultima Ratio Regum

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: all, I agree in general that science classes need to be restricted to science. But I think there's a conflict their with the infallibility principle, and I'm not sure which side to choose.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KrazyHorse
                          Look, allowing people to speak is a good idea, but limits are required. If their speech violates some more important ideal then it must be limited.
                          I disagree completely.

                          If your speech involves killing babies,


                          Strawman.

                          or using a government soapbox to promulgate a crypto-religious viewpoint among a captive audience of children, then tough ****ing titties.


                          The problem is we're using a government soapbox to promulgate a view that we are certain of.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            When in doubt, Kuci, go with the side that's not bat**** crazy.

                            -Arrian
                            grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                            The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Arrian
                              When in doubt, Kuci, go with the side that's not bat**** crazy.

                              -Arrian
                              Skokie.

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