‘Genocide denial laws will shut down debate’

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Wernazuma, who built the Autobahn?

Well, I didn't want to say they didn't build them, I expressed myself badly. But it is also basically seen as their invention (and, thus, farsight) while the idea is a bit older and not related to the Nazis at all. And finally, the "minor" problem of all arguments about good Nazi policy, that you better not ask how they financed their programs...

There was one town in Austria where people argued for Hitler remaining "citizen of honor" because "he built the Autobahn"... (they couldn't uphold this for long, however ).

[BeBMan]

War ja nich alles schlecht früher.... *hides*

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
And finally, the "minor" problem of all arguments about good Nazi policy, that you better not ask how they financed their programs...

Harriman Bank?

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Harriman Bank?

This is a very very small component. I'm more thinking about the fact that their economy was built purely on paper, not on gold. They had their ass economically uncovered.
IMO that expansion was not only a necessity in ideological terms, it became increasingly more important economy-wise too. The lacking solid background had at some point to be compensated by robbing jews, the Austrian national reserves (which were triple the German reserves by 1938!!), most probably other reserves too etc.
During the war, economic goals were reached through slave labor. Really good idea. Some people still believe in it, or at least point out the positive sides this madness had (cf. BeBro's remark "Not everything was bad back then"), not taking into account that effect B was only possible through insanity A.

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by BeBro
War ja nich alles schlecht früher.... *hides*

*pages furiously through German-English dictionary, gun at the ready*

[Provost Harrison]

I really don't like these laws designed to stop 'unsavoury opinions'...it's a bit pathetic really...why ban something like that - I am sure very few people believe it to be rational thought anyway...

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III


Probably you should, I'm no idiot. No, I'm not name-calling everyone a Nazi. I would never. Nazism is something very specific, confined to a determined space and period. Fascism is the more common and applicable concept. If I have to call names, it will be far more often "fascist". - That's also why I said that I don't fear true "Zombie-Nazism" coming from the tombs. The fascists would build on some elements, but not revive it.

What I mean is that Nazi-speak is deeply rooted in Austria, and surely in Germany too. Also, some Nazi-myths, even among non-Nazis. And that's something modern fascists could exploit.

Some idiotic FPÖ (far right) politician once said openly(!) "Meine Ehre heisst Treue" ("My honor is called fidelity") and was shocked when the media and other politicians started to call him a Nazi, since this was an infamous SS motto. He said he didn't know and never thought something could be wrong about honor and fidelity... Maybe he was just lying, but since the guy was very dumb, it is well possible he really didn't mean it in a Nazi way. He maybe just picked it up somewhere on the way.

In football stadium in Graz, many young fans from my club shout "Rote, wehrt euch, geht nicht zu den Schwarzen" (Reds [=GAK], resist, don't go the blacks [=Sturm]) (note, the Sturm fans shout the same vice versa). This, of course resembles the mob shouting "Deutsche, wehrt euch, kauft nicht bei den Juden" (Germans, resist, don't buy at the Jew's store). And it's not only the neo-Nazi idiots who shout that. At one point I told a folk what he was actually shouting there, and he was rather shocked.

And this continues well into the families. Occasionally my mom (absolutely politically desinterested, in most topics pretty liberal, with not even any anti-Israel opinion or anything) shocks me when I discover that she has some fixed concept of "the Jew" (greedy, intelligent, conspiratively networking). And my grandfather on that family's side was't even remotely Nazi! She's always very embarassed when I point to that, vowing that she is no anti-semite.

Or those old myths, that the Nazi's made good employment policies and built the Autobahn and whatnot, all this survived so long even among people whom I'd never personally classify as Nazis or even fascists.

That's just a few examples, there's hundreds of phrases or words still in use that have a clear Nazi-legacy. And even worse, some words still carry some of the Nazi meaning. The mentioned concept of "Treue" (fidelity) will never be free of what it meant to the Nazis - blind obedience.

And if those words still have a positive meaning for many, they might be more easily manipulated by demagogues.

Thank you for clearing that up.

I think this effort to uncover the nazi associations of various seemingly innocent phrases is at best deeply misguided and at worst genuinely harmful.

It's important to judge an idea or even a simple phrase on it's own merits. You can't allow the nazis to posthumously hijack things that have little to no connection to the criminal elements of their ideology.

What's worse every time you claim direct association between a harmless idea or phrase and the nazis you can't help but establish the idea that the nazis weren't entirely evil and despicable but in fact had some good ideas.

They'd probably be grateful to have someone like you reminding people of their use of these phrases.

In any event how confident are you that at least some of these phrases don't predate the nazis?

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Geronimo


Thank you for clearing that up.

I think this effort to uncover the nazi associations of various seemingly innocent phrases is at best deeply misguided and at worst genuinely harmful.

It's important to judge an idea or even a simple phrase on it's own merits. You can't allow the nazis to posthumously hijack things that have little to no connection to the criminal elements of their ideology.

What's worse every time you claim direct association between a harmless idea or phrase and the nazis you can't help but establish the idea that the nazis weren't entirely evil and despicable but in fact had some good ideas.

They'd probably be grateful to have someone like you reminding people of their use of these phrases.

In any event how confident are you that at least some of these phrases don't predate the nazis?

Well, I think your is not justified here

I can't speak for Wernazuma (eh, btw, how about a shorter nick ), but IMO making people aware what sort of things they are talking about isn't too bad. As I see it, it's not about going over every phrase that was ever used in NS Germany, but certain phrases are still highly ideologically loaden, and are still used to manipulate people.

The example of the FPÖ guy sounds like the usual far right wing/neonazi tactics in public debate we have here in Krautland (FPÖ is Austria, but it's similar here): I personally don't believe for a second that the guy wasn't aware that he spoke about the SS motto. Rather I think it was the usual tactics to see how far one can go rhetorically in politics these days.

At least that's what our neonazis try - they usually don't run around and say openly that they want to throw people in camps again. They are well aware that there would be no support for that amongst the broad majority, so they want to change the political climate first. Thatswhy they try to appear as good democrats, engage in Hamas-style social activities, but when you look closer, they're full of the bad old crap. In their official papers or party programs there's lots of talk of democracy and rights, but some phrases indicate that they have quite their own definition of those things. And in between they use those standard NS vocabulary here and there - and there it's done with a clear political message.

Therefore I think it's quite important that people know the meaning of such phrases. Then it remains a personal decision what to use and what not, although certain phrases are IMO simply unusable in public debate today. For example "Volksgemeinschaft" wasn't just the NS term for the German people, it was always related to the racist NS policy. And therefore its use by neonazi orgs today is just expression for their racist or at least xenophobic ideas.

[Wernazuma III]

Thanks BeBro. I have actually written a lengthy reply and at the end I was asking myself if Geronimo isn't trollbaiting, driving me into a lengthy explanation of my view. Your reply convinced me to discard my post (I lost half an hour of my life).
"Volks-" and "Volk-" words are frequently loaded with Nazi ideas, Volksfeind, Volkszersetzung, Umvolkung, Volkskörper, Volksempfinden, all that stuff.

Geronimo: you seem to have a VERY distorted view of what I'm doing, saying, thinking, how Austrians are, or how I perceive them, so this discussion is pretty pointless. You seem to interpret my post too much and I don't like what you're insinuating with your post.
You probably feel uneasy too when some kid in the US uses white pride terminology or some ideological words used often in the times of segregation, even if it's not used completely consciously, would you?


PS: BeBro, in 2002 or so, I had my nick changed to "Temtihumbaninshushinak" - for two weeks I couldn't post, or I broke the forum format and everyone was pissed off with me.

[Cort Haus]

Volkswagen?

[Wernazuma III]

To be fair, I wouldn't have kept that name.
The oter words I put in my post show what kind of understanding of the Volk the Nazis had: "people's enemy", "malign desintegration of the people from within", "re-peopleing" (i.e. ethnic cleansing), "body of the people" (a being with its own merit that can have a proper consciousness, the "Volksempfinden")...
Surely, the Volk this Volkswagen was meant to be for was the Volk how the Nazi's understood the word, so it is somehow connected. But the other words I mentioned are quite more frightening, to be sure.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Volkswagen?

Has not the same political connotation IMO. The term originated in the NS times, yes, but first meant a cheap car everyone could afford (of course one could debate here back and forth what "everyone" meant then, but IMO it wasn't a term central for nazi ideology like others mentioned above). I mean it's not that because of Hitler nobody can't say anything with "Volk..." anymore, that would be nonsense.

[GePap]

I think the third and final point that Lipstadd made is the most salient. People will always ask "why must there be a law?" and the more "rebelious" minded people, the type that like the challenge authority simply to challenge it will be drawn to these ignorant viewpoints simply to seem rebellious.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by BeBro


Has not the same political connotation IMO. The term originated in the NS times, yes, but first meant a cheap car everyone could afford (of course one could debate here back and forth what "everyone" meant then, but IMO it wasn't a term central for nazi ideology like others mentioned above). I mean it's not that because of Hitler nobody can't say anything with "Volk..." anymore, that would be nonsense.

Yep, the term "Volks-" is nowadays seen among most people without any connection to the Nazis.
Even the BIld-Zeitung uses it freely for Marketing purposes and created things like the Volksbibel and the Volks-PC

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Geronimo

I think this effort to uncover the nazi associations of various seemingly innocent phrases is at best deeply misguided and at worst genuinely harmful.

It's important to judge an idea or even a simple phrase on it's own merits. You can't allow the nazis to posthumously hijack things that have little to no connection to the criminal elements of their ideology.

What's worse every time you claim direct association between a harmless idea or phrase and the nazis you can't help but establish the idea that the nazis weren't entirely evil and despicable but in fact had some good ideas.

They'd probably be grateful to have someone like you reminding people of their use of these phrases.

Quite irrespective of any nazi connotation, I don't think "my honour is fidelity" is an harmless, still less good, idea. It says it's more important to be loyal than to be right.

Right or wrong, my country, as it were.